Preamp Choices

Vintage 700b

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#41
I picked up an Acurus RL11 to use in a different system and potentially upgrade in the future.

To start, I'm planning to update all electrolytics and put real RCA connectors on the chassis.

It's very obvious what corners were cut as compared to the Aragon line.





That is a very nice score.
Looks super clean, unmolested, and after your updates you will have a nice pre.
Yes, the RCA's have really got to go :D
 

Hexis22

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#42
A few corners maybe Eric. But a major upgrade however when compared to Chinese produced Japanese audio gear.
Completely agree, the audio quality is outstanding.

I just don’t like the plastic RCA input connector construction


Like I said earlier, if I didn’t already have the 24k to compare back to back, I would be perfectly happy with this as my main 2-CH pre.

As with most companies, gotta keep the bean counters fed…
 

J!m

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#43
We already know the noise improvement to be had with a larger transformer mounted externally…

Pots and selectors are another area of improvement. I’d get a stepped attenuator for it if it was me. Or a relay driven ladder.
 

e30m3mon

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#44
Completely agree, the audio quality is outstanding.

I just don’t like the plastic RCA input connector construction


Like I said earlier, if I didn’t already have the 24k to compare back to back, I would be perfectly happy with this as my main 2-CH pre.

As with most companies, gotta keep the bean counters fed…
Any chance you might have a pic of the RCAs on the back wall of the Aragon? The pics I saw posted did not show any detail of the jacks or mounting
 

Hexis22

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#48
We already know the noise improvement to be had with a larger transformer mounted externally…

Pots and selectors are another area of improvement. I’d get a stepped attenuator for it if it was me. Or a relay driven ladder.
I'm planing to build a full regulated external power supply for the Aragon and possibly use the stock IPS (with upgraded caps) to feed the RL11 eliminating the marginal internal transformer.
 

e30m3mon

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#49
Out of curiosity…an open question to all..is a regulated PS the best option for a preamp as this?

Previous postings in forums out here go back and forth about the use of a regulated PS in a preamp not being able to react fast enough to transients and demands preamps place on power supplies. Is there any kind of guideline or data that shows preference for using regulated or un-regulated?
 

Gepetto

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#50
Out of curiosity…an open question to all..is a regulated PS the best option for a preamp as this?

Previous postings in forums out here go back and forth about the use of a regulated PS in a preamp not being able to react fast enough to transients and demands preamps place on power supplies. Is there any kind of guideline or data that shows preference for using regulated or un-regulated?
Huh???

I have never seen any of that dialog here Al.

Think of it this way, the basic circuit of the preamp, by design has a certain PSRR, Power Supply Rejection Ratio inherent to it. If it is op amp based, the natural PSRR will be something on the order of 80-90dB. This means that any noise coming in from the power supply will be 80-90 dB down on the signal being amplified. This is also frequency dependent, the higher the frequency, the lower the PSRR. So you want to focus more on higher frequency power supply purity where the circuit rejection falls off. Bypassing using capacitors helps this, especially when located right at the load. Putting a small value bypass cap far away from the load is diminished in effect by the wiring/trace to get the power from the source to load due to wire or trace inductance.

A regulated Power Supply also has a specified rejection ratio and that typically is greater than 70dB.

If you put those 2 rejection ratios in series, you gain the benefit of the cascading noise rejection of the basic circuit plus the power supply. Unregulated supplies rely primarily on capacitors to provide rejection ratios and electrolytics are generally not very good at providing as the frequency goes up and where you need it most.

The most prized preamps will use well regulated power supplies. The cascading effect is large. Even if you cannot hear it, it will be measurable. Preamps also do not require much power, even for transients, most not exceeding a watt or two. So the thought that you need massive power supplies for a preamp generally do not exist, unless it is a design like the Accuphase where it is essentially a low power, power amp disguised as a preamp.

The effect of remoting a regulated power supply may or may not improve noise performance, depending on how it gets implemented. Moving to a separate shielded (ferrous) enclosure will help eliminate/reduce any transformer generated stray flux circuit pickup in the preamp circuits. Depending where the stray flux introduces itself into the physical preamp circuit, the preamp may not be able to reject it. The preamp cannot tell a stray flux input signal from the intended signal and will amplify both. The wiring from the remoted PS may be a source of noise pickup and it also introduces a relatively large amount of inductance which is not desirable. Care must be taken at the preamp end of a long wire run to quell the effects of that inductance.
 
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Hexis22

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#51
Transient response of a regulated supply is definitely a large consideration, but most transients will be fed from low ESR bulk caps within the preamp.

I'm planning to build a regulated supply capable of supporting small amplifiers with transient response optimized using simulation tools. Very overbuilt for this application.
 

e30m3mon

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#52
Huh???

I have never seen any of that dialog here Al.

Think of it this way, the basic circuit of the preamp, by design has a certain PSRR, Power Supply Rejection Ratio inherent to it. If it is op amp based, the natural PSRR will be something on the order of 80-90dB. This means that any noise coming in from the power supply will be 80-90 dB down on the signal being amplified. This is also frequency dependent, the higher the frequency, the lower the PSRR. So you want to focus more on higher frequency power supply purity where the circuit rejection falls off. Bypassing using capacitors helps this, especially when located right at the load. Putting a small value bypass cap far away from the load is diminished in effect by the wiring/trace to get the power from the source to load due to wire or trace inductance.

A regulated Power Supply also has a specified rejection ratio and that typically is greater than 70dB.

If you put those 2 rejection ratios in series, you gain the benefit of the cascading noise rejection of the basic circuit plus the power supply. Unregulated supplies rely primarily on capacitors to provide rejection ratios and electrolytics are generally not very good at providing as the frequency goes up and where you need it most.

The most prized preamps will use well regulated power supplies. The cascading effect is large. Even if you cannot hear it, it will be measurable. Preamps also do not require much power, even for transients, most not exceeding a watt or two. So the thought that you need massive power supplies for a preamp generally do not exist, unless it is a design like the Accuphase where it is essentially a low power, power amp disguised as a preamp.

The effect of remoting a regulated power supply may or may not improve noise performance, depending on how it gets implemented. Moving to a separate shielded (ferrous) enclosure will help eliminate/reduce any transformer generated stray flux circuit pickup in the preamp circuits. Depending where the stray flux introduces itself into the physical preamp circuit, the preamp may not be able to reject it. The preamp cannot tell a stray flux input signal from the intended signal and will amplify both. The wiring from the remoted PS may be a source of noise pickup and it also introduces a relatively large amount of inductance which is not desirable. Care must be taken at the preamp end of a long wire run to quell the effects of that inductance.
Thnk you Joe…that clarifies a lot. Not sure where I saw the comment regarding what I mentioned previously…if I stumble on it again, I will post a reference link. A well-earned “HUH???” nonetheless!
 

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#54
Some have said a unregulated power supply like the amps use can respond to transients faster than a regulated supply. I have no idea if true or not.
It all depends on the regulated supply. The power regulators that feed a 350W Intel processor under VID control can move from the idle state to max power state in a few microseconds. A swing of 210A in demand without missing a beat. If you could bear the cost and size adder that a regulated supply could do for a power amp, manufacturers would be doing it. Those manufacturers know there are practical limits and also know that most listeners would be perfectly satisfied with a 105 dB SNR. And would not pay the freight to go from 105 dB to 108 dB.
 

Gepetto

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#55
Think of it this way, a practical example.

Imagine the water line in your house has one 50 micron water filter installed in the main line. You will get cleaner water than if you did not have that water filter.
Then imagine you add a second 50 micron water filter in series with the first. You will get cleaner water than you got with just one water filter in line.
Then imagine you add a third 50 micron water filter in series with the second. You will get cleaner water than you got with just two water filters in line.

And if you are concerned about transient demands on the water flow downstream of the filters, you can install a pressure tank reservoir (capacitor) downstream of your three filters to give you instantaneous bursts of tap pressure. Or alternatively, you could place another set of 3 series water filters in parallel (multiple regulators) with the first set to gain transient pressure response.

It all depends on the topology of your setup, and how much $$ and space you are willing to spend. Power supplies can follow this analogy very closely and work very similarly.
 
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J!m

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#57
What Wyn does is use a cheap switching supply and then tailor the output filter.

This provides cleaner power than a linear supply at reduced cost.

This is real world proven when his original DIY design is directly compared to the much more expensive Sota offering, which “had to have” a linear supply. That retails over three grand and noise floor is higher than the DIY.

(this is for his phono pre design)

Another interesting case is the Benchmark AHB2 or whatever it’s called. Check that amp out…
 

Hexis22

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#58
Another interesting case is the Benchmark AHB2 or whatever it’s called. Check that amp out…
Interesting approach to amp design, along with catchy marketing statements - "The Quietest, Cleanest Audio Amplifier on the Planet"

I would love to compare one in my system for real world listening performance as compared other traditional designs.
 

J!m

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#59
You can- they have a return privilege.

But if your preamp is running single ended, it’ll never do it. Even balanced has to be pro high voltage and not home audio low voltage. You can’t get the noise floor all the way down if the rest of the system isn’t up to it.

Lots to read on their site and worth the time. Including calculators to evaluate your current system.

They do not mess around there. They are serious.
 

Hexis22

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#60
You can- they have a return privilege.

But if your preamp is running single ended, it’ll never do it. Even balanced has to be pro high voltage and not home audio low voltage. You can’t get the noise floor all the way down if the rest of the system isn’t up to it.

Lots to read on their site and worth the time. Including calculators to evaluate your current system.

They do not mess around there. They are serious.
Agree, lots of good reading on their site.

Thanks for posting.
 
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