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My Father's Continuing Saga........
- Thread starter Phase Linear Phanatic
- Start date
Thanks Lee! And Joe! i TRY to do the best work I can to my abilities. (Though they be limited). It was a joyous moment to send my dad home packing two powerful full-montied WOPL400's. I loaded them into his van and told him to enjoy them as he drove off into the sunset. He will be hooking them both back in-line tommorrow. I told him to call me and let me know how it sounds. He was ecstatic as it was.
And this is all from a guy who started out this saga by saying "I'm not paying x amount of dollars for something I've never heard before"? So I spent it for him initially because I already knew it was worth it. (He paid it back later and I told him not to but he insisted). Never did I think he'd do it a SECOND time! He's a convert for sure and I am glad we have this group of guys here to help each other out. You've saved my ass more than a few times to say the least.
By the way........He READS these posts. So everyone say hi to Bill.
And this is all from a guy who started out this saga by saying "I'm not paying x amount of dollars for something I've never heard before"? So I spent it for him initially because I already knew it was worth it. (He paid it back later and I told him not to but he insisted). Never did I think he'd do it a SECOND time! He's a convert for sure and I am glad we have this group of guys here to help each other out. You've saved my ass more than a few times to say the least.
By the way........He READS these posts. So everyone say hi to Bill.
Enjoy the music, and your new upgraded amps. Dave does a super job assembling these for you. Meticulous.
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10-4 Joe. Spoke with my father. The amps may make a return trip in the near future. I will fix the wire routing up upon their arrival.
Also in speaking with him on the phone this morning; he says the meters DO act that way on the old build. They just don't do it after the amp has been sitting off for a while. Like an hour or more. That's why it didn't do it here when I tried it. But turn it on and off again in less than that and they DO. I am presumming this has to do with the caps having their residual discharging in the circuitry or something? My no-knowledge 2-cents. SO NOW he DOES want me to move the meter wiring off the backplanes in the old build. So there we go. Good news on both fronts. I have asked for some more wiring kits. Can't have too much of that stuff lying around. Gotta probably be like Lee and have a hundred of everything...........
Also in speaking with him on the phone this morning; he says the meters DO act that way on the old build. They just don't do it after the amp has been sitting off for a while. Like an hour or more. That's why it didn't do it here when I tried it. But turn it on and off again in less than that and they DO. I am presumming this has to do with the caps having their residual discharging in the circuitry or something? My no-knowledge 2-cents. SO NOW he DOES want me to move the meter wiring off the backplanes in the old build. So there we go. Good news on both fronts. I have asked for some more wiring kits. Can't have too much of that stuff lying around. Gotta probably be like Lee and have a hundred of everything...........
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I tried to get him to create an account here back in 2012. And multiple times over the years, and then just now on the phone. He just says he'd have nothing to contribute. He knows nothing about electronics and everyone would be above his head completely. He said "I just know what sounds good to my ears or not". So we probably won't see him on this forum unfortunately. I'll have to continue to be the third party mouth-piece and he can read this stuff as we go along.
New development. He has put the amps into his system and said he can definitively hear the difference! He loves the way it sounds. He is very happy being Dual-WOPL'd! So much so........(wait for it)...... that third PL400 he has lying around doing nothing? He said he may want to do that one too!
Which means of course buying a fourth so the system UPSTAIRS can be bi-amped and WOPL'd. Currently right now he is running two Carver M-500t's like I used to have in my upstairs movie watching area. But he's debating whether or not to get them to MKII upgraded or not. So it's been going between doing the two WOPL400 route or the upgraded Carvers.
Meanwhile, remember the Rotel Pre-amp problem he had that got solved with the carver C1? Well the upstairs system he has a Rotel RC-1550 on as a pre-amp. Not as bad sounding as the RC-1580 he had downstairs, but equally as annoying to him. So yeah............history is repeating itself. See what happens when you get WOPL'd across the face? LOL.......it becomes an obsession, and the men in this family have a running history obsession to PL amps. Fingers crossed we go here again in the near future.
New development. He has put the amps into his system and said he can definitively hear the difference! He loves the way it sounds. He is very happy being Dual-WOPL'd! So much so........(wait for it)...... that third PL400 he has lying around doing nothing? He said he may want to do that one too!
Which means of course buying a fourth so the system UPSTAIRS can be bi-amped and WOPL'd. Currently right now he is running two Carver M-500t's like I used to have in my upstairs movie watching area. But he's debating whether or not to get them to MKII upgraded or not. So it's been going between doing the two WOPL400 route or the upgraded Carvers.
Meanwhile, remember the Rotel Pre-amp problem he had that got solved with the carver C1? Well the upstairs system he has a Rotel RC-1550 on as a pre-amp. Not as bad sounding as the RC-1580 he had downstairs, but equally as annoying to him. So yeah............history is repeating itself. See what happens when you get WOPL'd across the face? LOL.......it becomes an obsession, and the men in this family have a running history obsession to PL amps. Fingers crossed we go here again in the near future.
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Got Joe's wiring kits in. Had my father return today with both amps in tow. I made matching modifications to both. Following Joe's wiring path instructions, I re-routed my AC and DC the best I could. Some Consideration given to the two facts that A.) I already had the backplanes in and wires soldered to em, so lengthening them wasn't an option at this time, and B.) My dad, (the customer) did not want to cut to length the original transformer wires (gray) to the light board. So I made a service loop. Right or wrong, that was his decision.
So this solved the hum I got when only speaker wires were hooked up. At least to the point it was only audible if you smashed your ear into the woofer. It was faint at best. The minute I plugged ANYTHING in to the RCA jack though, we got a louder hum. Both amps, regardless if a source was at the other end. Yes my RCA jack are floating and I metered them to chassis. -No continuity. So considering the test bench had an iphone and a crappy pair of RCA's just for testing amp function, we aren't sold this is actually an issue. He said he couldn't hear it at home BEFORE I re-routed the wiring. Only if he walked up to the speaker and put his ear into it. He's not concerned about it. I DO have that meter attenuation switch washer touching the bottom binding post nut and those two ring out to chassis, but since the binding post core is plastic, I can see only the attenuation switch body being an issue, but it's not because it doesn't ground out to anything else. Would a three prong plug solve some of this? Or is it inherent in the amp build? (i.e. new sensitive parts that can pick up things a lot easier)? I'm just pissing in the wind there so take it with a garin of salt. Joe said his Acurus pre, brings in hum when he hooks to it too, so I presume it to be? The old PL wiring didn't do that though, so I'm wondering what is the cause of it? The great news is, the meters no longer bounce on turn on/off and are protected by the DCP, so I AM glad everyone here prompted me to make sure I made that change while I was in there.
Anyway, that's the last I'm touching the amps. They are DONE. He is SATISFIED, and that's probably it for him. Below some shots as received together, and then one of each AFTER I re-routed the signal paths. The Saga is again...........OVER. Enjoy the amplifier porn............
So this solved the hum I got when only speaker wires were hooked up. At least to the point it was only audible if you smashed your ear into the woofer. It was faint at best. The minute I plugged ANYTHING in to the RCA jack though, we got a louder hum. Both amps, regardless if a source was at the other end. Yes my RCA jack are floating and I metered them to chassis. -No continuity. So considering the test bench had an iphone and a crappy pair of RCA's just for testing amp function, we aren't sold this is actually an issue. He said he couldn't hear it at home BEFORE I re-routed the wiring. Only if he walked up to the speaker and put his ear into it. He's not concerned about it. I DO have that meter attenuation switch washer touching the bottom binding post nut and those two ring out to chassis, but since the binding post core is plastic, I can see only the attenuation switch body being an issue, but it's not because it doesn't ground out to anything else. Would a three prong plug solve some of this? Or is it inherent in the amp build? (i.e. new sensitive parts that can pick up things a lot easier)? I'm just pissing in the wind there so take it with a garin of salt. Joe said his Acurus pre, brings in hum when he hooks to it too, so I presume it to be? The old PL wiring didn't do that though, so I'm wondering what is the cause of it? The great news is, the meters no longer bounce on turn on/off and are protected by the DCP, so I AM glad everyone here prompted me to make sure I made that change while I was in there.
Anyway, that's the last I'm touching the amps. They are DONE. He is SATISFIED, and that's probably it for him. Below some shots as received together, and then one of each AFTER I re-routed the signal paths. The Saga is again...........OVER. Enjoy the amplifier porn............
Hi Dave
One day, if I ever have time, I will fix the faint noise originating from the Acurus pre.
Like I said earlier, I have to have my ear literally on the speaker to hear it.
The rerouted wiring looks great. You should not have had to do anything with the backplane wiring other than the meter wires
One day, if I ever have time, I will fix the faint noise originating from the Acurus pre.
Like I said earlier, I have to have my ear literally on the speaker to hear it.
The rerouted wiring looks great. You should not have had to do anything with the backplane wiring other than the meter wires
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Yup. We had the same results here after the re-routing. So we are good.
I think what I meant by the backplanes being rewired was the one amp I used a longer yellow wire from the left backplane board and went behind the control board to keep it away from the AC going to the thermal switch. The original build it was shorter and I didn’t. OCD told me to redo the wire and make it longer but the backplanes being in place, I didn’t want to do that. So I left it alone. Plus the “customer” was watching me so I was on a time-table. I was just pondering my own work trying to make them match, so ignore my own ramblings.
All in all, I think the wiring looks good enough as I’m willing to go now, and these amps have his stamp of approval so we are good. Thanks for the direction on this! Thanks to you guys here for keeping me up to speed on the way we route certain things now. I sometimes go months without logging in and miss certain topics. I feel now I understand how all these things go together now and how and why they work the way they do. And I didn’t before. Now I feel I could do these again without feeing uneasy about things going up in a puff of smoke. Maybe I will feel confidant enough to do a 700B? Who knows.
Thanks a bunch guys! And Bill says thanks too!
I think what I meant by the backplanes being rewired was the one amp I used a longer yellow wire from the left backplane board and went behind the control board to keep it away from the AC going to the thermal switch. The original build it was shorter and I didn’t. OCD told me to redo the wire and make it longer but the backplanes being in place, I didn’t want to do that. So I left it alone. Plus the “customer” was watching me so I was on a time-table. I was just pondering my own work trying to make them match, so ignore my own ramblings.
All in all, I think the wiring looks good enough as I’m willing to go now, and these amps have his stamp of approval so we are good. Thanks for the direction on this! Thanks to you guys here for keeping me up to speed on the way we route certain things now. I sometimes go months without logging in and miss certain topics. I feel now I understand how all these things go together now and how and why they work the way they do. And I didn’t before. Now I feel I could do these again without feeing uneasy about things going up in a puff of smoke. Maybe I will feel confidant enough to do a 700B? Who knows.
Thanks a bunch guys! And Bill says thanks too!
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I lied about not touching the amps again. I still just couldn't shake the irritating low-hum the two amps kept exhibiting. After a LOT of back and forth with Mark and trying some things like internal shielded cable from the RCA's to the driver board, nothing seemed to alleviate the problem. Hooking up a pair of cables to the amp basically made the noise worse and acted like an antenna as I moved it about. Naturally putting my hands on the other end made it louder. Plugging it in to a source, (any source) did not solve it. the hum was there regardless. We came to the conclusion it was plain flat-out Noisy Transformers.
After repeatedly talking to Mark and Joe in general for a few weeks, we determined how I built the amps was done correctly. It wasn't something I missed in either build. But one thing Joe pointed out was the fact that his lab mule had the RCA JACK COPPER BINDING PLATE still installed and my amps did not. Nor did the amps from the other builders. I didn't understand why I had the unfortunate circumstance of "noisy transformers" and the other builders hadn't said a thing? And I had TWO at that? Joe made it clear Phase Linear did NOT shield their transformers very well-if in fact at all. Obviously the sensitive WOA components now show that inerrant flaw.
Joe advised me to put that copper plate at the RCA's back in. Thankfully I KEPT a zip-lock bag full of my fathers old PL parts from this last build. (I threw the first builds away). Mark was kind enough to send me a plate and I fished out the one the amp came with from the bag. Which is weird because the plate that came originally in this amp from PL was NOT perfectly rectangle like all the other amps I had seen? It's like someone took a bite out of the center? Or like PL used an end-piece (scrap) that was lying around in the shop? Wouldn't surprise me in the Least!
Joe's solution is to make certain that plate STAYS in the new builds and also that the orange wires (GND) coming from the back-planes to the control board are NOT to be used and to run them from star ground via a ring terminal to reduce the noise. Joe has since changed (mentioned) these two practices in his recently revised version of the instructions for installing the parts. I included them here in a snippet to help the community. I followed the revisions and here was the result...
With NO RCA's hooked up, (only speaks to the binding posts) there still was a slight hum about a foot away. However, when plugging in RCA's, that hum then AMPLIFIES (as it did before) but this time, when I plugged the other end into the pre-amp (iphone, Acurus RL-11, Carver C1) ANY source, the hum is vanquished. I can smash my ears right into the woofs and hear NADA. It's canceled/shorted out completely. Dead silence. Upon dis-engaging from the pre, the hum slowly creeps back up again in volume to a constant low hum as it was before. With that copper plate in there; the trick is done. My father will NEVER be in a scenario where he's using the amps with no pre-amp connected. I mean WHO would??? So now it's a non-issue. Enough of a non issue (short of replacing the XFMR itself just to satisfy some belligerent OCD), that I sent my dad packing with the amps in the back of his van and back to the country-side he went.
I tried calling him last Saturday ALL day long to ask how they sounded and what the results were with his BILL-D modded Carver C1 in there but he never answered. It wasn't till Sunday he called me back. I said "What Gives"?? He responded with (as he usually has in the past); "I was busy blowing my brains out". So that meaning Mach 11 for 8 hours solid with a case of beer in him. LOL.
Below are the pics from the Revision. I began by opening up both amps. I went back to twisted wire (Joe's Wire from the wire kits) and put the plates back in and ran the orange wires from star as instructed. Joe can chime in on this as well since it meant revising his installation procedures a couple weeks ago to accommodate. (sorry for messing with your write-up Joe). I have to have the difficult amps for some reason?
But Bill is back to being happy as a clam. Dual WOAPL400's, a Bill-D modded C1 and Audio Research Passive Xover (PC2) all running on fully-loaded Bozak Concert Grands......he was grinning from ear to ear. And today (as it so happens) is his birthday so I'm sure it's time for yet another Jam Session! Thanks for the hard brain-crunching Joe! Same to Mark.
After repeatedly talking to Mark and Joe in general for a few weeks, we determined how I built the amps was done correctly. It wasn't something I missed in either build. But one thing Joe pointed out was the fact that his lab mule had the RCA JACK COPPER BINDING PLATE still installed and my amps did not. Nor did the amps from the other builders. I didn't understand why I had the unfortunate circumstance of "noisy transformers" and the other builders hadn't said a thing? And I had TWO at that? Joe made it clear Phase Linear did NOT shield their transformers very well-if in fact at all. Obviously the sensitive WOA components now show that inerrant flaw.
Joe advised me to put that copper plate at the RCA's back in. Thankfully I KEPT a zip-lock bag full of my fathers old PL parts from this last build. (I threw the first builds away). Mark was kind enough to send me a plate and I fished out the one the amp came with from the bag. Which is weird because the plate that came originally in this amp from PL was NOT perfectly rectangle like all the other amps I had seen? It's like someone took a bite out of the center? Or like PL used an end-piece (scrap) that was lying around in the shop? Wouldn't surprise me in the Least!
Joe's solution is to make certain that plate STAYS in the new builds and also that the orange wires (GND) coming from the back-planes to the control board are NOT to be used and to run them from star ground via a ring terminal to reduce the noise. Joe has since changed (mentioned) these two practices in his recently revised version of the instructions for installing the parts. I included them here in a snippet to help the community. I followed the revisions and here was the result...
With NO RCA's hooked up, (only speaks to the binding posts) there still was a slight hum about a foot away. However, when plugging in RCA's, that hum then AMPLIFIES (as it did before) but this time, when I plugged the other end into the pre-amp (iphone, Acurus RL-11, Carver C1) ANY source, the hum is vanquished. I can smash my ears right into the woofs and hear NADA. It's canceled/shorted out completely. Dead silence. Upon dis-engaging from the pre, the hum slowly creeps back up again in volume to a constant low hum as it was before. With that copper plate in there; the trick is done. My father will NEVER be in a scenario where he's using the amps with no pre-amp connected. I mean WHO would??? So now it's a non-issue. Enough of a non issue (short of replacing the XFMR itself just to satisfy some belligerent OCD), that I sent my dad packing with the amps in the back of his van and back to the country-side he went.
I tried calling him last Saturday ALL day long to ask how they sounded and what the results were with his BILL-D modded Carver C1 in there but he never answered. It wasn't till Sunday he called me back. I said "What Gives"?? He responded with (as he usually has in the past); "I was busy blowing my brains out". So that meaning Mach 11 for 8 hours solid with a case of beer in him. LOL.
Below are the pics from the Revision. I began by opening up both amps. I went back to twisted wire (Joe's Wire from the wire kits) and put the plates back in and ran the orange wires from star as instructed. Joe can chime in on this as well since it meant revising his installation procedures a couple weeks ago to accommodate. (sorry for messing with your write-up Joe). I have to have the difficult amps for some reason?
But Bill is back to being happy as a clam. Dual WOAPL400's, a Bill-D modded C1 and Audio Research Passive Xover (PC2) all running on fully-loaded Bozak Concert Grands......he was grinning from ear to ear.
And today (as it so happens) is his birthday so I'm sure it's time for yet another Jam Session! Thanks for the hard brain-crunching Joe! Same to Mark.
Last edited:
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- Joined
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- Born and Raised In The 700 Watt Club.
Did you just snip the # 5 wire off @ the back plane or take it all apart again to unsolder it ??
I'm glad to see this post and Joe's revision.... I've been chasing low level hum on my WOPLS's also ...
Btw, I spotted something in the top right corner sitting on the back plane, rouge shred of wire ?
M
I'm glad to see this post and Joe's revision.... I've been chasing low level hum on my WOPLS's also ...
Btw, I spotted something in the top right corner sitting on the back plane, rouge shred of wire ?
M
All 3 of my WOPLs were dead quiet before adding the copper plates and making the wiring changes. I personally can't tell any difference before or after, but if Joe recommends it, go with it. I use Phoenix Contacts connectors so was simple matter of unscrewing the jumper and adding the ground wire and plate. I soldered the ground wires to the buss bar and Switchcraft RCA ground tabs to the copper plate.
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- Born and Raised In The 700 Watt Club.
Did you just snip the # 5 wire off @ the back plane or take it all apart again to unsolder it ??
I'm glad to see this post and Joe's revision.... I've been chasing low level hum on my WOPLS's also ...
Btw, I spotted something in the top right corner sitting on the back plane, rouge shred of wire ?
View attachment 64025
M
I'm glad to see this post and Joe's revision.... I've been chasing low level hum on my WOPLS's also ...
Btw, I spotted something in the top right corner sitting on the back plane, rouge shred of wire ?
View attachment 64025
M
You may have a noisy transformer like me. In my correspondance with Mark and Joe, it’s clear (as if we didn’t all already know this) but PL was notorious for having inconsistancy across its products. Even two amps being wired next to each other by different people could have different properties. Even some transformers that got put into the amps from PL’s supplier were wound more “HOT” than others or even the plates inside them werent’ developed the same. I happened to have two noisy ones apparently, as you may also have. I have a third PL400 that didn’t get white oaked. No telling if that would be the same result, but I had the experts pick the amps apart and had some hour long conversations on phone about what I was experiencing and thay all said I wired it correctly. I followed the instructions to the enth-degree. So noisy XFMR it is.
As far as the question on what I did with the orange wires, I followed Joes email to me. He told me to take the backplane wires and neatly tuck them out of the way. I did NOT snip them off the backplane. As we all know, once you do that, you ain’t getting it back. For troubleshooting reasons or whatever have you. I chose not to go against what he said and tucked them under the control board. Taped off and wrapped in shrink. At the time we weren’t sure if all this was gonna work so yeah, I left them alone. NEW builds I wouldn’t add the wire as Joe shows in his new changes. He said he’s never experimented or tested his boards in a 400 that DIDN’t have that RCA plate there. So PL had it for a reason and Joe knew that was the differentiator for me. He also ran tests on his to determine the amount of noise after running to star and not via the backplane. He shared the test numbers with me. It was significant on the test so I did it.
And it worked. Frankly, that’s all I was interested in. It makes no difference to those builders who lucked out and got quiet XFMRS, but for me, it mattered. Enough for Joe to alter the instructions. I can’t thank him enough for the assist! And George, Copying is the biggest form of flattery right? I did practically everything you did on your own builds. Between Joes instructions and you, I could not fathom messing anything up. I feel I’m picky enough and adept enough to attempt the build. So I guess I just won’t go playing the lottery anytime soon is all……
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Sharing Joe’s data (numbers) below. Again to help those suffering from the same condition I did. (Joe, feel free to chime in here so I’m not putting it wrong.)
I didn’t know some amps had self-shorting jacks? Glad to know it’s not only the PL’s that suffer from the dreaded hum either. Joe’s SNR changes are significant….
I didn’t know some amps had self-shorting jacks? Glad to know it’s not only the PL’s that suffer from the dreaded hum either. Joe’s SNR changes are significant….
