Musings on Amplifier Damping Factor

stuwee

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#42
MarkWComer said:
I wonder how electrostatic systems figure in the damping factor mix. Do they have similar mass/inertia characteristics as cones?
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Near zero mass, extremely fast output front and back from almost any amp I've used on Martin Logans (they are hybrids however, with dynamic cone woofers). My Summits have 400 watts of class D amp for the dual woofs, I have know idea how the source amp factors into the equation. I'll call ML and ask as I'm very curious about this as well!!

I'll assume that the main amp powering the 'stat panels damping factor has little effect with such a low mass to move. Play Micheal Buble' ~ "Fever" on a pair of Logans at Mach 6 and when the trumpet barks, if your listeners don't jump, check their pulse :tongue4:

I think my SAE amps damping is less than optimal than others, I'll have to check that too.
 
Northwinds

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Just how many dB's of headroom do the WOPL500s and 1000s have? I read the lowly Proton amps brag about just over 7dbs and I know my amp will stomp a Proton into the dirt and piss down it's speaker jacks. I am guessing around 12 or better for the 500?
 
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Northwinds said:
Just how many dB's of headroom do the WOPL500s and 1000s have? I read the lowly Proton amps brag about just over 7dbs and I know my amp will stomp a Proton into the dirt and piss down it's speaker jacks. I am guessing around 12 or better for the 500?
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????
 
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^^^^ That tells me nothing about a WOPL's rating. I have a Peavey CS800 that has more power but cannot reproduce bass the same as a WOPL. I have yet to get the WOPL to clip w/ my CV's but I can get the Peavey to clip easily
 
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If I was hot on an amplifier's damping factor I would mention it to a customer. If they had not heard that spec before, I used to describe it as an electronic brake that stopped unnecessary cone motion so bass was tight and not sloppy. My amplifier designer/builder co-worker explained to me that assigning a damping factor to a particular amp had little value because characteristics of whatever speaker was being used were major factors on the calculation. So without knowing speaker parameters, assigning a specific number to a particular amplifier's damping ability was pointless. Not all manufacturers bothered to publish that specification and I assume now, that was why. I figured too that that was why, when that spec was published, it was always a greater than figure ie: >40.

I can remember, before I had this explained to me many years ago, comparing one amplifier with a stated damping factor of ~>60 to one ~>40. I had a double original Advent system as well as some borrowed Altec 14's at home and the amp with the lower number sounded best with percussion on both speakers. I was expecting the opposite but no so I assumed its >30 was a conservative rating but must have actually been higher than the other's >60 because drums sounded snappier. There was lots of woofer cone mass in motion with both speaker systems yet the amp with the smaller number stopped them moving better than the one with the bigger number.
 
marcok

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#49
I do agree ! Behind your considerations there's the damping factor of the speakers ( Q ) , most due to crossover design . Another very complex matter . Ciao Marco
 
Gibsonian

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Northwinds said:
^^^^ That tells me nothing about a WOPL's rating. I have a Peavey CS800 that has more power but cannot reproduce bass the same as a WOPL. I have yet to get the WOPL to clip w/ my CV's but I can get the Peavey to clip easily
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CS800 has far less power than a PL 700 or a WOPL1000 (PL and WOPL are nearly the same, WOPL a little more power), so that would explain some of the bass difference. Damping factor is also higher for the PL design, which in many systems, esp active crossover systems, can contribute to better bass performance.

In regards to the headroom, the Proton design is dual rail I believe and was designed for exceptionally high headroom, but cannot sustain the power that it can produce in bursts. It's comparing apples and oranges really. The WOPL has a lot more power but less headroom for sure. Headroom is a ratings/marketing game for the most part, but in the Proton amp, is really quite a bit higher than most others due to the amplifier design.
 
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Gibsonian said:
CS800 has far less power than a PL 700 or a WOPL1000 (PL and WOPL are nearly the same, WOPL a little more power), so that would explain some of the bass difference. Damping factor is also higher for the PL design, which in many systems, esp active crossover systems, can contribute to better bass performance.

In regards to the headroom, the Proton design is dual rail I believe and was designed for exceptionally high headroom, but cannot sustain the power that it can produce in bursts. It's comparing apples and oranges really. The WOPL has a lot more power but less headroom for sure. Headroom is a ratings/marketing game for the most part, but in the Proton amp, is really quite a bit higher than most others due to the amplifier design.
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The WOPL I was referring to is my own 500, not a 1000 and the 500 stomps the CS800 in every aspect. I associated damping factor w/ headroom so perhaps this is where I am confused. Regarding headroom of the WOPL, I can lay my meters over flat and leave them there and still keep turning up the amp until the tweeters and mids trip in the CV's, the amp still sounds clear as a bell at that point. I thought damping was the ability to reproduce low bass frequencies at high power levels without clipping and keeping the bass tight. The headroom aspect I thought was the shock factor of dynamics which is what the WOPL does with high hat or cymbal crashes, downright startling... like your right there with your face next to a live drummer. I call it the blink factor because a high hat crash or floor tom hits will make most people in my house "blink" if they are by the speakers
 
Gibsonian

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Northwinds said:
The WOPL I was referring to is my own 500, not a 1000 and the 500 stomps the CS800 in every aspect. I associated damping factor w/ headroom so perhaps this is where I am confused. Regarding headroom of the WOPL, I can lay my meters over flat and leave them there and still keep turning up the amp until the tweeters and mids trip in the CV's, the amp still sounds clear as a bell at that point. I thought damping was the ability to reproduce low bass frequencies at high power levels without clipping and keeping the bass tight. The headroom aspect I thought was the shock factor of dynamics which is what the WOPL does with high hat or cymbal crashes, downright startling... like your right there with your face next to a live drummer. I call it the blink factor because a high hat crash or floor tom hits will make most people in my house "blink" if they are by the speakers
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You are half right on the damping factor - definitely related to "tight" bass via exerting control over the stop/start of the woofer cone, not related to clipping of the amplifier.

Headroom you are right on, is right there with good dynamics, but that is also found in high power amps with lots of voltage swing, such as the PL amps. Bigger voltage swing allowed and bigger/better dynamics will be heard. A PL 400/700 would spank the Proton amp for dynamics, but the Proton is probably one of the most dynamic 100 watt amps you will likely hear. As I mentioned earlier, headroom to me is more of a marketing/ratings game.

Those meters are inaccurate needles to watch flay around with the output, but I like em!
 
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Thanks Gibsonian, that sort of helps but I still want to know how many dBs of headroom the WOPL's have. I like the Protons with the big meters but apparently they don't last for shit, poor build quality from what I have read. They don't like to be driven hard
 
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I looked up the specs on my Yamaha DSP-A2070, which sounds so good with my Vandersteen 2C's, and the damping factor is 120.
 
Northwinds

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Big difference between the M-504 and a PL400/700B. Damping for the 504 is only 150 edit 140 (anything 100 or over is excellent). A stock PL400 and 700B is a factor 1000 :toothy5:
 
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