How about a capacitor discussion?

[Alex SE]

I believe that caps are affecting a sound, but... Take for example some TOTL amp that is built only by the highest quality components. In a such a situations its clear that only the best can be involved. At the same time, when talking about standard music equipment where a manufacturers have used 5% tolerance components it's obvious that 1% would not make any difference.
Back to capacitors itself. When talking about cassette decks and brands like Sony, Technics, Aiwa and others, do you think that caps can make any difference? I mean, Pana FM, FR and Nichi UPW on the one side and UFW, UFG and UKZ on the other side - would it make any difference?
I'm about to recap one of my RS-B965 which is more than 90% filled with some Pana Pureism capacitors (guess it is some audio series caps) which I dont believe are anything better than FM, FR or UPW. Would it give any improvement if I recap a whole deck with audio caps from Nichicon, like UFW or UFG, since it is excellent (when modified) cassette deck but it is still not some 100.000$ gear. Fore example, UKZ is overkill for this purpose and is definitely out of question.
The one can take a Ferrari engine and somehow squeeze it in some standard car which will make that car run faster, but it will anyway not be able to run as fast as a Ferrari. You understand what I mean.

Second and for me eternal question: When they say audio capacitors, does it means that they are made to be generally used in audio equipment or just in a signal path?

 

[George S.]

Good questions!

 

[J!m]

https://meniscusaudio.com/product-category/capacitors/page/2/?orderby=price-desc

 

[Alex SE]

https://meniscusaudio.com/product-category/capacitors/page/2/?orderby=price-desc

... and then we see an amplifier that costs 10.000$+ and wondering what did they put in it

Why not, if the one have some of the finest turntables and some fancy speakers, otherwise a whole setup would not have any sense. I mean, I have normal preamp/amp + normal speakers and no matter what I hook up to it, it will not sound better than good or very good on a scale bad-average-good-very good-excellent.

I can imagine, a cassette deck would be big as refrigerator with such a big capacitors and sound improvement would be questionable.

 

[nakdoc]

Capacitor tolerance has no effect on sound qualities, unless they are in an equalization circuit. Power supply capacitors, coupling, and bypass capacitors have modes of distortion related to their physical design. Inside electrolytic capacitors are two parallel foil "plates" separted by a semi liquid insulating electrolyte. Of the many distortion causes, relative movement of the plates closer to each other and further from each other under the influence of electrical fields, will modulate (distort) the audio signal. Audio grade capacitors are designed to minimize plate movements.
The question you ask is completely valid - are these capacitor distortions audible in a tape deck? My answer is "maybe". Nakamichi, for example, installed a variety of capacitor series, recognizable by their various colors, using specific types in specific circuit locations. Coupling capacitors were different from bypass capacitors. Yamaha in the old days did the same. I do not know if these construction choices were based on engineering theory, actual listening tests, economics, or a desire to meet the customers' expectations.
Recapping bottom line is "it never hurts". That being said, I personally wonder if the wonderful sound on really old Sansui 5000X receivers is attributable to really old capacitors distorting in a manner which we find to be ear pleasing.

 

[8991XJ]

You can improve the deck with quality caps but fully loading a unit with audio grade caps, even in the power supply where one should use power supply caps doesn't seem to be the right idea.

Any new quality cap, Wurth, Panasonic, Nichicon, CDE or whoever Digikey and Mouser sell will be better than a cap made nearly half a century ago but properly selecting them requires some knowledge of circuits.

Common thinking is to use film caps for anything in the 4.7µF and lower range, especially since Nichicon has EoL'ed all their caps of 5 and 6.3mm Φ (diameter). But the use of low leakage caps the Nichocon UKL is a good move, again EoLed.

One really needs to know the circuit to make the exactly correct selection but just getting new good caps will be an improvement over old tired ones.

 

[J!m]

Most of the noise in a system comes from cables and connectors. Poor connections; inappropriate cables and long runs all (often) add more noise (noise above the noise floor) than the component is capable of.

 

[Gepetto]

I believe that caps are affecting a sound, but... Take for example some TOTL amp that is built only by the highest quality components. In a such a situations its clear that only the best can be involved. At the same time, when talking about standard music equipment where a manufacturers have used 5% tolerance components it's obvious that 1% would not make any difference.
Back to capacitors itself. When talking about cassette decks and brands like Sony, Technics, Aiwa and others, do you think that caps can make any difference? I mean, Pana FM, FR and Nichi UPW on the one side and UFW, UFG and UKZ on the other side - would it make any difference?
I'm about to recap one of my RS-B965 which is more than 90% filled with some Pana Pureism capacitors (guess it is some audio series caps) which I dont believe are anything better than FM, FR or UPW. Would it give any improvement if I recap a whole deck with audio caps from Nichicon, like UFW or UFG, since it is excellent (when modified) cassette deck but it is still not some 100.000$ gear. Fore example, UKZ is overkill for this purpose and is definitely out of question.
The one can take a Ferrari engine and somehow squeeze it in some standard car which will make that car run faster, but it will anyway not be able to run as fast as a Ferrari. You understand what I mean.

Second and for me eternal question: When they say audio capacitors, does it means that they are made to be generally used in audio equipment or just in a signal path?

Signal path, audio labeled caps are often not as good for decoupling applications for example...

 

[J!m]

They have to be expensive or they won’t work!

 

[Alex SE]

Capacitor tolerance has no effect on sound qualities, unless they are in an equalization circuit.

I've mentioned tolerances just as example, there are even other factors, and besides, capacitors are just a part of a circuits. Anything else in a circuit can affect a sound. What you said about eq circuit is good to know, thanx.

Power supply capacitors, coupling, and bypass capacitors have modes of distortion related to their physical design. Inside electrolytic capacitors are two parallel foil "plates" separted by a semi liquid insulating electrolyte. Of the many distortion causes, relative movement of the plates closer to each other and further from each other under the influence of electrical fields, will modulate (distort) the audio signal. Audio grade capacitors are designed to minimize plate movements.

Which means that power supply is not so sensitive to those "plate movements" as a signal path is, IAUC. Thanx again, for explaining a difference. Didn't knew that it's about that. I like the way you are explaining.

The question you ask is completely valid - are these capacitor distortions audible in a tape deck? My answer is "maybe". Nakamichi, for example, installed a variety of capacitor series, recognizable by their various colors, using specific types in specific circuit locations. Coupling capacitors were different from bypass capacitors. Yamaha in the old days did the same. I do not know if these construction choices were based on engineering theory, actual listening tests, economics, or a desire to meet the customers' expectations.

I'm not an expert, far away, and don't own any of Nakamichi decks, but reading around about them, it seems that Nakamichi was the only manufacturer who wanted to make as good as possible decks, while the rest of them wanted just to make it good enough to make a profit.

Recapping bottom line is "it never hurts". That being said, I personally wonder if the wonderful sound on really old Sansui 5000X receivers is attributable to really old capacitors distorting in a manner which we find to be ear pleasing.

I believe it's about "imperfection" of those old components. Take for example a CD. It was meant to be the perfect media with zero noise, and what a people who care about a sound itself like? LP and tapes. I have a thousands of songs on a hard drive, everything between 128kbps to a FLAC and there is nothing wrong with that sound as long I'm doing anything else but "listening" a sound itself. But when I want to enjoy a music, I want it from a tape. I want to hear that sweet noise in the background. Heh, somebody told me that he likes the most recordings from FM because of a specific kind of noise. Duno, younger generations probably like a digital sound.

You can improve the deck with quality caps but fully loading a unit with audio grade caps, even in the power supply where one should use power supply caps doesn't seem to be the right idea.

And you hit a center of one of my questions. So, audio capacitors are meant to be used just in a signal path, not in a whole audio unit.

Common thinking is to use film caps for anything in the 4.7µF and lower range, especially since Nichicon has EoL'ed all their caps of 5 and 6.3mm Φ (diameter). But the use of low leakage caps the Nichocon UKL is a good move, again EoLed.

One really needs to know the circuit to make the exactly correct selection but just getting new good caps will be an improvement over old tired ones.

I have seen somewhere people are talking about that, but am kind a skeptic. AFAIK thous film (like Wima) are coloring sound someone said. Maybe for some digital unit like CD, MD or DAC but I would rather stay with classic caps for decks and amps. Its just my opinion, but I completely agree with you about a knowledge before doing anything stupid. That's why I'm asking you guys all the time.

Any new quality cap, Wurth, Panasonic, Nichicon, CDE or whoever Digikey and Mouser sell will be better than a cap made nearly half a century ago but properly selecting them requires some knowledge of circuits."

Since that we are talking about consumer grade audio equipment, not a stuff that costs thousands of dollars, I believe that it's enough to know:
- which caps belongs to power supply and which to signal path, when reading a SM.
- where to put low leakage caps (AFAIK in a negative feedback, can be somewhere else too)
- where it can be good to put bipolars instead of polarized (general rule mentioned before here in forum)
- which capacitors are good for what purpose. For example, FM, FR, UPW and some others for power supply, UES as bipolars, and those Nichi audio for a signal path.
- would it make a difference between for example FM cap and some audio cap in a signal path, which is variable from case to case.

I guess I'll do as described, standard caps in PS, bipolars when in series and with 0v in a signal path, audio caps for the rest of a signal path and UKL for NFB. That deck just cant be better than that and it will neither gonna fly or make a breakfast.

What is also confusing was that (in just my case), a manufacturer put a two different kind of caps in a power supply, just beside transformer. I'm talking about those big, 1000uF and 2200uf, 25V. Some are Pana Pureism and some are Pana X-Pro. Wondering if there is really a reason to put different caps there since both are in a power supply, or it was just a marketing thing like a "hey, we have a X-Pro caps here" and when you open a unit there are a whole two of them. If the one is better than the other, why not just take that one for everything in a power supply. Kind a confusing.

 

[Alex SE]

Just found a good site
https://eepower.com/capacitor-guide/

 

[J!m]

My take is everything matters. The entire circuit design to the final evaluation for noise and distortion.

Yes, there are pleasant noises and pleasant distortions. But they will be on the original master tape, or from the ancient mic preamps in the studio. Or the old mics themselves. Maybe the console. Or *shudder* that 2” tape deck running at 30 inches.

I don’t want to add to that at all. I want to hear it, but I don’t want to hear more (or lose that original noise).

So, my reproduction equipment I try to have a very neutral and color-free chain. I try to use balanced connections to drive down that noise. My amps have a “sound” I find pleasant, but I know it’s colored and distorted.

Heck my main listening these days is via a KX-880 into thrift store Polk speakers. Plenty of badness in there.

 

[WOPL Sniffer]

What about Oxygen Free Caps on Chop-Stick elevators, Used in the Blue Oyster Cult "More Cowbells" deally Bob ThingamaJig???

 

[8991XJ]

So, audio capacitors are meant to be used just in a signal path, not in a whole audio unit.

If you are installing power supply capacitors that are supposed to handle ripple current wouldn't it make sense to use a cap rated for higher ripple current than some audio cap?

but when you get into the circuits and the rail voltage has a cap dangling from it to ground, is that part of the audio circuit, will it benefit being an audio cap? The ripple is already removed. Sure use an audio cap there. Or a bipolar one.

As to the Wima flavoring, try a different film brand. Low leakage can lead to lower noise in the circuit, but I doubt it would be high enough to exceed tape hiss even using marginal caps.

 

[Gepetto]

I have seen somewhere people are talking about that, but am kind a skeptic. AFAIK thous film (like Wima) are coloring sound someone said. Maybe for some digital unit like CD, MD or DAC but I would rather stay with classic caps for decks and amps. Its just my opinion, but I completely agree with you about a knowledge before doing anything stupid. That's why I'm asking you guys all the time.[/QUOTE]

What do you consider 'classic' caps?

WIMA is a premier provider of classic caps of many different types.

 

[Alex SE]

I have seen somewhere people are talking about that, but am kind a skeptic. AFAIK thous film (like Wima) are coloring sound someone said. Maybe for some digital unit like CD, MD or DAC but I would rather stay with classic caps for decks and amps. Its just my opinion, but I completely agree with you about a knowledge before doing anything stupid. That's why I'm asking you guys all the time.

What do you consider 'classic' caps?

WIMA is a premier provider of classic caps of many different types.[/QUOTE]

I was meaning Aluminium Electroliytic Didnt knew that wima makes those, have seen/used only those plastic red square formed, FKM or FKS, but only once for some little project (couple resistors, 2 caps, 2 transistors and couple LEDs)

 

[J!m]

Well, classic cars are over 20 years old and they turn antique at 25 years old.

 

[wattsabundant]

The attached document provides a wealth of information on electrolytics that does not require a leap of faith or any magic. No they don't discuss audio grade capacitors, whatever that is, but a lot can be learned. Equally important to construction is reliability, shelf life and temperature all of which are covered.

 

[George S.]

Thanks Don, I'm printing this. Good reference material.

 

[nakdoc]

Polarized electrolytics like to be polarized. Very often however we see input coupling capacitors feeding an opamp or diff pair, and both sides of the electrolytic at zero volts DC. When audio signals, which are AC, are passing through the cap, (lets assume the + lead is towards the input) the negative part of the audio signal actually reverse biases the electrolytic! Reversing polarity on an electrolytic breaks down the electrolyte insulator inside, and decreases the capacitance. An audio grade capacitor is designed to act more like a non-polar electrolytic in these situations.