How about a capacitor discussion?

[perfecious]

those axial "nichicon" polypropylene caps are actually made here by ICEL, an italian producer.
I believe nichicon sort of bought the brand/factory.

and yes, they are quite big and quite expensive compared to electrolytics.
Don't know if it worths to put them into cassette decks, they would hardly fit size wise.

a couple years ago, i was considering those nichicon/ICEL films to refresh the crossover caps of some loudspeakers.
Funny that, even if they are made in Italy, i can find and get them just through mouser.

https://www.icel.it/it/

ICEL are made in Italy? That's cool. We've been wondering for months who made those. I know they are listed as Nichicon on Mouser. I found quite a few of them (the industrial PHC series I think) on the local scrapyard (taking them off some huge communication equipment, probably used in DC-to-DC converters), and I got dozens of them.



I've installed them in the crossovers of my speakers, and they sound really good, a bit smooth, but relaxing.



Much preferred the sound of the ICEL over the "Premium Audio Grade" JB premiums I installed in my other WHD_BR-140-B, which sound very sharp.



Speaking of the JB's though, the 0.1uF polypropylenes (brown ones) are the best I've ever heard as a bypass. They really open up the sound, compared to the polyesters. It's a shame that I've been using the metalized PET's from wima all these years, now I have to replace them with the JB polypropylenes.

Before:



After:



Those might be older production though, before JB moved into china, so I can't be sure if new production is as good as those that I have. I mean I hope they are, but I can't confirm it at this time.



As for the WIMA 1uF MKP2's, yeah - those are the best signal caps I've ever heard. We just spend 22eros for 10 pieces from mouser. That was painful, but totally worth it:



Those are just the best I've ever heard, specifically as a replacement for the back-to-back playback coupling capacitors in AIWA decks, like the AD-F800/780/880, where I've used MKS2 (crap - sterile, flat and dry), UES (best when it comes to electrolytic).



Also in the RS-B755/765 (possibly others) at the Dolby inputs from the line input (C47/C48).

 

[vince666]

ICEL are made in Italy? That's cool. We've been wondering for months who made those. I know they are listed as Nichicon on Mouser. I found quite a few of them (the industrial PHC series I think) on the local scrapyard (taking them off some huge communication equipment, probably used in DC-to-DC converters), and I got dozens of them.

View attachment 84751

I've installed them in the crossovers of my speakers, and they sound really good, a bit smooth, but relaxing.

View attachment 84753

Much preferred the sound of the ICEL over the "Premium Audio Grade" JB premiums I installed in my other WHD_BR-140-B, which sound very sharp.

View attachment 84755

Speaking of the JB's though, the 0.1uF polypropylenes (brown ones) are the best I've ever heard as a bypass. They really open up the sound, compared to the polyesters. It's a shame that I've been using the metalized PET's from wima all these years, now I have to replace them with the JB polypropylenes.

Before:

View attachment 84758

After:

View attachment 84757

Those might be older production though, before JB moved into china, so I can't be sure if new production is as good as those that I have. I mean I hope they are, but I can't confirm it at this time.

View attachment 84756

As for the WIMA 1uF MKP2's, yeah - those are the best signal caps I've ever heard. We just spend 22eros for 10 pieces from mouser. That was painful, but totally worth it:

View attachment 84759

Those are just the best I've ever heard, specifically as a replacement for the back-to-back playback coupling capacitors in AIWA decks, like the AD-F800/780/880, where I've used MKS2 (crap - sterile, flat and dry), UES (best when it comes to electrolytic).

View attachment 84760

Also in the RS-B755/765 (possibly others) at the Dolby inputs from the line input (C47/C48).

Thanks for sharing.
Need to take note of your findings.

 

[derek92994]

What happens when you use audio capacitors in power supplies of cassette decks?

 

[J!m]

Nothing if they’re properly rated.

Power won’t sound any better.

 

[perfecious]

What happens when you use audio capacitors in power supplies of cassette decks?

It hits your wallet pretty hard?

In all seriousness though, I haven't found a modern "audio capacitor" that sounds better than the old Nippon Chemi-con caps yet (at PS decoupling and local filtering), used in old gear. Unfortunately these old Nippons are severely degraded at this time, based on this year's machines I worked on (not all, but enough to warrant a necessary full recap). Be it in Pioneer 70s-80s gear, or even more modern AIWA' decks for example. I can kinda simulate their sound using Nichicon FG's + the chinese LOW-ESR Fujicons (rated at higher voltage, 63v for example), but that could be seen as insanity by most people. Currently testing Nichicon KW's, which are the only audio grade from Nichicon I haven't tried, and they seem to have a bit better sound than the others, but apparently those require some "burn-in", so I will evaluate them after they worked for a while. Still not reaching the old Nippons though (SME/SM-D series).

 

[vince666]

Did you also try Panasonic FM for power supply filtering?
Being some caps mentioned by Alex/ANT for such purposes, I go with these without even wondering.

 

[perfecious]

Did you also try Panasonic FM for power supply filtering?
Being some caps mentioned by Alex/ANT for such purposes, I go with these without even wondering.

Of course, Panasonic FM's are the ones I use the most , they are my default recommendation (especially with Technics decks), with FR's in some cases as well. The FM's are the closest to the original old caps in technics decks sonic wise, not a surprise that Alex also recommends them if recap of the originals is needed (they are also really high quality with huge life), but they are just a bit dry-er sounding (sharp but fuzzy transients), the bass on them is "correct/full" at least, as is the tonality/timbre.

The FR's with their insane ripple performance are very smooth sounding, insane layering/resolution performance and clarity with them (they really clean up the power, I refer to them as battery-like caps), but they can be a bit "too smooth" sounding, and their timbre is not as natural (plasticky/mid-centric timbre as I call it) as the FM or even the FC, and the bass is a bit anemic (they are low ESR), which is why I usually use combinations of FR and FM in specific configurations/places.

Panasonic FC's are the worst sounding. Their bass is probably the best from my memories (in terms of natural body/texture and resolution), but everything else just not good - flat/2-dimensional and grainy mids being the worst part of them, and harsh treble, destroying any definition and dimensionality of the stage in comparison to the others. They just sound artificial in comparison, and it's a shame that many technicians that do recaps over here use them. They are good caps, but not in audio circuits, especially in gear with simpler PS designs, where the caps used (and even the rectifier diodes) have a significant effect on the sound.

 

[vince666]

Of course, Panasonic FM's are the ones I use the most , they are my default recommendation (especially with Technics decks), with FR's in some cases as well. The FM's are the closest to the original old caps in technics decks sonic wise, not a surprise that Alex also recommends them if recap of the originals is needed (they are also really high quality with huge life), but they are just a bit dry-er sounding (sharp but fuzzy transients), the bass on them is "correct/full" at least, as is the tonality/timbre.

The FR's with their insane ripple performance are very smooth sounding, insane layering/resolution performance and clarity with them (they really clean up the power, I refer to them as battery-like caps), but they can be a bit "too smooth" sounding, and their timbre is not as natural (plasticky/mid-centric timbre as I call it) as the FM or even the FC, and the bass is a bit anemic (they are low ESR), which is why I usually use combinations of FR and FM in specific configurations/places.

Panasonic FC's are the worst sounding. Their bass is probably the best from my memories (in terms of natural body/texture and resolution), but everything else just not good - flat/2-dimensional and grainy mids being the worst part of them, and harsh treble, destroying any definition and dimensionality of the stage in comparison to the others. They just sound artificial in comparison, and it's a shame that many technicians that do recaps over here use them. They are good caps, but not in audio circuits, especially in gear with simpler PS designs, where the caps used (and even the rectifier diodes) have a significant effect on the sound.

interesting insight on these panasonic series, as well.
Thanks for sharing!

I do remember there were 2 of those 3 series with more similar specs/parameters and the third one with slightly lesser specs... then they should be the FC (are them the blue ones with gold markings, true?)... but maybe they offer some more/larger values than the other 2 series.

anyways, for power supply fitering purposes (being it the main PS or local supply near IC chips), my first choice are the FM and if I cannot find the right values then I tend to go with nichicon UPM or UPW series, which look a similar kind of capacitors with very long life specs too.

 

[derek92994]

Pretty sure I used Nichicon UES or Wima MKP2’s when recapping my Nak BX300’s

 

[vince666]

Pretty sure I used Nichicon UES or Wima MKP2’s when recapping my Nak BX300’s

bipolars like nichicon UES or panasonic SU (BP) are some of those I do extensively use in the signal path (i.e. signal coupling).

 

[laatsch55]

Perfecious'--- What has been your experience with Elna Silmic II's ?

 

[mr_rye89]

Nichicon Muse/FG where my go-to but I think they quit making them.

 

[mlucitt]

In my opinion, if the capacitors of any type or brand sound poorly, they are rated incorrectly for the application. All audio components are subtractive devices, they add nothing to the audio "quality" and when they are far from the ideal specification to block AC interference or perform bandpass functions, the more the audio quality is diminished.
In a perfect preamplifier or amplifier audio signal path, there are no capacitors except to block DC voltage; a necessary evil unless you don't mind sending DC to your speakers.
Of course, for the necessary capacitors in the power conditioning circuits such as bypass applications, you want the highest quality you can find. But this will have no effect on the audio quality in a well-designed topology.