How about a capacitor discussion?

A.N.T.

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Bipolar (Non-Polar) electrolytic caps can be happily used in place of polar caps as long as the maximum voltage is not exceeded. If the DC voltage on the capacitor is low and polarity is not known or variable (as could be the case in many opamp based circuits in audio equipment), than Bipolar caps is a safer (and usually a sonically better) choice. I use bipolar caps for signal coupling in most situations. The exceptions are cases when a capacitor is heavily DC biased and at the same time a better quality polar capacitor is available, like Black Gate caps for instance.

Cheers

Alex
 
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laatsch55

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Bipolar (Non-Polar) electrolytic caps can be happily used in place of polar caps as long as the maximum voltage is not exceeded. If the DC voltage on the capacitor is low and polarity is not known or variable (as could be the case in many opamp based circuits in audio equipment), than Bipolar caps is a safer (and usually a sonically better) choice. I use bipolar caps for signal coupling in most situations. The exceptions are cases when a capacitor is heavily DC biased and at the same time a better quality polar capacitor is available, like Black Gate caps for instance.

Cheers

Alex
Alex, are Blackgate caps back in production or are you talking new, old stock??
 

vince666

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It seems Alex/A.N.T. just gave a precious hint, which adds even some more on what I had learnt before (from some of his older posts, of course).

Just.... I suspect Black Gate caps aren't available that much often at now (don't they?).

Not one A3, one page on A3 and then put them all together. My eyes are almost 50 yo, A4 wouldn't do a job :)

Regarding capacitors, what you are saying is that in case as on the left side (A) its ok to put a bipolar, and polarized have to bi used only in a case as on the right side (B)? Of course, we are talking about 0V (or less than +/-1V)
View attachment 75794
well, my eyes will be exactly 50 yo in just few days, but they seem to still work quite fine for such kind of age.

do your examples come from a real schematic you've taken from a deck or not?
which is the meaning of those arrows? the ones above I guess it's a signal path but the ones below with a bar at the tip of the arrow?
Do they mean that the schematic goes on with other stuff or it's ground?
 

vince666

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I might be wrong... but, by memory, I seem to remember that while recapping a few decks based on discrete preamps (transistor based preamps, not op-amp preamps) , it can happen that one pin of the transistor (maybe the collector?) goes to a DC supply rail through a capacitor and the transistor itself is a part of the signal path... in such situations, most likely, I used to go with a polarized like a Panasonic FM, as I've considered it like a (local) power supply just for the transistor.

it seems it might be one of those exceptions mentioned above by @A.N.T. of a heavily DC biased capacitor close to the signal path then, maybe it was purely by istinct or some pure luck (because I never really studied electronics in any way!) but I might have done a good choice in not putting a bipolar there... who knows, maybe on such situations also a low leaking polarized would be a proper choice? Or, maybe, this is one case where a polarized cap "for audio" might be an obvious solution? (I am excluding the Black Gate solution, which would be clearly the best in this case, just because of their scarcity)
 
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Alex SE

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OK guys, after reading some interesting stuff and schematics, now I understand the most of what I need for what I'm doing for the moment. Anyway...
There is one other problem: seems that some of Nichicon UES are discontinued :cussing:
1. Any suggestions for a good bipolar for signal path?

2. Cant find low impedance Aluminum Electrolytic capacitor 0,33uF 50V (at least not FC, FM, FR, FS, UPW). Can I take UKL instead or maybe standard audio UKT or just any available. It is C48 on the picture below.

1685224259046.png
 
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vince666

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for good bipolars, go with Panasonic SU-A series... I always used either them or the Nichicon UES depending only on the values I found available.

for very small values (under 1uF) we could consider those Panasonic PP film you mentioned before in this thread, the ECWF(D) series but the ones mentioned as General Film Capacitors, and not the ECWF(D) for Microwave purposes... still didn't actually try them, though:
https://www.mouser.it/ProductDetail/Panasonic/ECW-FD2J104JB?qs=7EBvPakHacXrlwyWWDOSng==

about the Panasonic FM, I've never found them below, say, 22uF... I guess they never made them at lower values than that... in theory, datasheets say they start from 10uF but i never found them below 22uF, at least at mouser. In my latest order, I've got a few Panasonic FR at 10uF 50V, though.
But, below 10uF, if I need polarized I usually go directly with Nichicon UKL.

Also, in my latest mouser order, I've got some 1uF bipolars by Rubycon... series are NA and NXA.
And about 1uF polarized, since the Nichicon UKL aren't available at 1uF (found them only from 2.2uF and higher) I've got a few Rubycon YXM which have interesting ripple specs and are rated for 10.000 hours. Still didn't try any of them, though.
 

Alex SE

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Yes, Rubicon have a lowest values, but the question is how god they are for audio equipment. At the other side, soneone said "it doesent matter which one you chose, all branded are bettet than those made 30-40 years ago.".
Those Pana film are good, but in many (if not all) cases are huge. Will see if I can find something.
So your opinion, for C47/C48, would it be better with UKL or some audio cap in the case a film cap can't fit?
 

vince666

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Rubycon is a good brand.
At C47/48 (is it in the neg. feedback?) I would usually go with a UKL.
But one of those PP film can't do bad, I guess... maybe they are even better (if they fit).
Of course, if you take a 330nF PP film at 400Volts it will be quite big... should see the size of a lower voltage one.
 

Alex SE

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Not sure if it's NFB, thus can't decide which type to use. Either would do a job, question is only how big difference it makes.
One other interesting thing is that in a deck I'm working with, 965, almost all capacitors are s.c. Pureism which should be an audio capacitors, which is kind a b.s.
Now I'm far away from expert but, correct me if I'm wrong, the one can't just take audio caps and put them everywhere, no matter if it is ps or signal path or?
Either a Pureism is a general purpose capacitors named and sold as WOW thing, or a Matsushita have just used what they had without chasing best performance.
Not to go into discussion that doesn't belongs here, the fact is that for 965:
- Dolby levels are wrongly adjusted by the factory
- output levels are wrong if the one adjusts dolby levels correct
- peak meters are inaccurate, more like a joke.
- they didn't used low leak caps where it's obvious they should. (the worst thing, deck is working even with regular a.e. capacitor. (Talking about C7/C8)
Fixing all of these things gets that deck to a proper stage. Applying ANT mods makes it a great. Anyway...
Back to beginning, question is if UKL or some film is a better choice for C47/C48, or just to put any a.e.c. In front of all, does it really matters and how big difference does it makes.
 

vince666

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As you just know, I am not expert enough to answer your questions/doubts regarding the specific caps there in the circuit.

My best guess is that a PP film cap is better on just about everything compared to an electrolytic but, of course, it's much bigger in size and it can cost more. So, since lately I am seeing the usual kinds of electrolytic caps we use to buy (UES, UKL) aren't available at those low values, maybe now we are forced to replace them with film caps?

Regarding the dolby levels being wrongly adjusted from the factory on the B965... how can you know for sure someone else had some fun on those PB level trimpots during all those years before you got the deck? Also, can PB levels drift over time, i.e. due to ageing parts?

About the output levels being "wrong" once you adjust dolby levels correct... the only place where it really matters that the PB levels are right is just at the dolby chips... the output can be whatever it wishes, IMHO, once the level at the dolby chips is right.
Another thing... are you evaluating such things after you just applied the usual ANT's mods on the deck?
Maybe it's normal that, after modifying a deck (and about the B965 we are talking about extensive mods, not just a small mod), you should check/realign it and that maybe what you can read in the SM doesn't apply exactly anymore?
After all, before and after the mods, you cannot consider the deck as being the same as before.

About the meter levels... on both of my RS-B965, meters seem to work fine... if I play a dolby test tape, the meters (in expanded mode) shows just the dolby mark on both of them.
 

Alex SE

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I know what you mean and it was definitely where I didn't wanted this topoc to come.
My observation was that there are the same type of capacitors all over ths deck, and I was wondering, how does it comes that (if) audio caps are used for everything. Never mind...
Seems that:
1. It would be the best (at least for me) to follow "directions" and do as same as they did at the factory. If it is polarized, replace it with f***** polarized, if that was audio, sure, place an audio cap.
Too many alternatives but the question is: How much the one can win by replacing polarized with bipolar, and how much the one can loose by doing wrong.
Reading again some comments on the first page, where Nacdoc explained some things. I mean, he is right from the bottom to the top, and of course as Alex A.N.T is (I believe I don't need to mention). Until the one don't have needed knowledge and really understand this stuff, replacing polarized with bipolar can be wrong. It doesn't need to be a "boom & smoke" wrong, it can be negative impact on the sound or some capacitor that is degrading faster than it should. Which one was wrong? You tell me when 70 or 80 of them are replaced and maybe half of them with bipolar.
Now, I have already recaped one 965, and it works great (adjusting everything burned not just lot of my, but even Vincents time and nerves, and I'm really thankful for that Vince). That deck sounds and recording beautiful and simply behave as it should in every way. If you ask me if I did right when choosing capacitors - I hope so. I did the best I could. Why I don't just recap the other one a same way? - Sure, I'm just curious if something can be done better.
You know Vince how long time is that deck open and waiting to be fixed and closed. Unfortunately lot of things went thru my life under the last couple of months, but now I want to take it to the end. Order caps and some other stuff and finish that for once.
BTW:
FM 22 - 6.800
FR 4,7 - 8.200
FC 2,2 - 15.000
FS 27 - 10.000
UPW 0,47 - 15.000

Maybe its a good idea to use film caps instead for a.e. for the smaller values, say under 5uF.
 

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I know what you mean and it was definitely where I didn't wanted this topoc to come.
My observation was that there are the same type of capacitors all over ths deck, and I was wondering, how does it comes that (if) audio caps are used for everything. Never mind...
Seems that:
1. It would be the best (at least for me) to follow "directions" and do as same as they did at the factory. If it is polarized, replace it with f***** polarized, if that was audio, sure, place an audio cap.
Too many alternatives but the question is: How much the one can win by replacing polarized with bipolar, and how much the one can loose by doing wrong.
Reading again some comments on the first page, where Nacdoc explained some things. I mean, he is right from the bottom to the top, and of course as Alex A.N.T is (I believe I don't need to mention). Until the one don't have needed knowledge and really understand this stuff, replacing polarized with bipolar can be wrong. It doesn't need to be a "boom & smoke" wrong, it can be negative impact on the sound or some capacitor that is degrading faster than it should. Which one was wrong? You tell me when 70 or 80 of them are replaced and maybe half of them with bipolar.
Now, I have already recaped one 965, and it works great (adjusting everything burned not just lot of my, but even Vincents time and nerves, and I'm really thankful for that Vince). That deck sounds and recording beautiful and simply behave as it should in every way. If you ask me if I did right when choosing capacitors - I hope so. I did the best I could. Why I don't just recap the other one a same way? - Sure, I'm just curious if something can be done better.
You know Vince how long time is that deck open and waiting to be fixed and closed. Unfortunately lot of things went thru my life under the last couple of months, but now I want to take it to the end. Order caps and some other stuff and finish that for once.
BTW:
FM 22 - 6.800
FR 4,7 - 8.200
FC 2,2 - 15.000
FS 27 - 10.000
UPW 0,47 - 15.000

Maybe its a good idea to use film caps instead for a.e. for the smaller values, say under 5uF.
If space was no object, no one would use electrolytic caps. Unfortunately, space has to be considered.

On bipolar vs non polar electrolytics, if you consider one electrolytic (bipolar) in your signal path to be a compromise, then two electrolytics (non polar) in your signal path is a double compromise...
 

vince666

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If space was no object, no one would use electrolytic caps. Unfortunately, space has to be considered.

On bipolar vs non polar electrolytics, if you consider one electrolytic (bipolar) in your signal path to be a compromise, then two electrolytics (non polar) in your signal path is a double compromise...
Of course, you meant bipolar vs polarized or non polar vs polar/polarized... as bipolar and non polar are the same thing.

Anyways, I doubt a true bipolar is the exact same as two polarized put in anti-series... i.e. one of the mods suggested by Alex on AIWA AD-F880 (and similar) decks is to replace the anti-series couples of polarized caps, used as signal coupling just after the PB op-amp, with one proper bipolar (non polar) cap.

Let's not forget what Alex told at the top of this same page... if bipolar were the same as two polarized ones in anti-series, I doubt he would say he happily uses them in the signal path as a sonically better option.

Bipolar (Non-Polar) electrolytic caps can be happily used in place of polar caps as long as the maximum voltage is not exceeded. If the DC voltage on the capacitor is low and polarity is not known or variable (as could be the case in many opamp based circuits in audio equipment), than Bipolar caps is a safer (and usually a sonically better) choice. I use bipolar caps for signal coupling in most situations. The exceptions are cases when a capacitor is heavily DC biased and at the same time a better quality polar capacitor is available, like Black Gate caps for instance.

Cheers

Alex
 

mlucitt

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Of course, you meant bipolar vs polarized or non polar vs polar/polarized... as bipolar and non polar are the same thing.

Anyways, I doubt a true bipolar is the exact same as two polarized put in anti-series... i.e. one of the mods suggested by Alex on AIWA AD-F880 (and similar) decks is to replace the anti-series couples of polarized caps, used as signal coupling just after the PB op-amp, with one proper bipolar (non polar) cap.

Let's not forget what Alex told at the top of this same page... if bipolar were the same as two polarized ones in anti-series, I doubt he would say he happily uses them in the signal path as a sonically better option.
All electrolytic capacitors, Bipolar or Polarized, are capacitors whose anode or positive plate is made of a metal that forms an insulating oxide layer through anodization. This oxide layer acts as the dielectric of the capacitor. A solid, liquid, or gel electrolyte covers the surface of this oxide layer, serving as the cathode or negative plate of the capacitor. There are three families of electrolytic capacitor: aluminum, tantalum, and niobium.
However, most of the capacitors used in audio service are the aluminum "wet" (Ethylene glycol/borax, organic, or water-based electrolyte) type.
Bipolar electrolytic capacitors are also made, using special construction with two anodes connected in series. A bipolar electrolytic capacitor can also be made by connecting two normal electrolytic capacitors in series, anode to anode or cathode to cathode.
(adapted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor)

The issue with electrolytic capacitors is that due to the use of electrolyte in an aluminum can, there are environmental factors (temperature, humidity, barometric pressure) that can change the value or characteristics of the capacitor over time. These changes affect the way the capacitor reacts to frequency in RC circuits, filtering capability, or the ability to store energy. This is the reason to avoid capacitors in the audio signal path as White Oak Audio has done with the Rev G1 Control Board.

Film capacitors are always preferable to electrolytic capacitors in the audio signal path and can be found up to 1000uF (these are a little pricey). Most of us would be content with film capacitors of 22uF or less and there are several KEMET Polyester capacitors in this category https://tinyurl.com/yckkj5pb

The ideal construction dielectric for audio path capacitors, such as DC blocking capacitors on the input of an amplifier or the output of a preamplifier, is polypropylene. Polypropylene is a thermoplastic polymer produced via chain-growth polymerization from the monomer propylene. Polypropylene belongs to the group of polyolefins (synthetic resins) and is partially crystalline and non-polar. Characteristics of polypropylene are toughness, flexibility, light weight, and heat resistance. The polypropylene film capacitors are generally larger than their polyester, polycarbonate, polyethylene, polystyrene, or polyphenylene sulphide film cousins. But if you look, you can find them. Such as this Nichicon 25uF/250V/10% polypropylene axial capacitor at Mouser for $11.00 each.
https://tinyurl.com/zv5f283c

Bigger is better in DC blocking capacitors, yes?
 

vince666

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those axial "nichicon" polypropylene caps are actually made here by ICEL, an italian producer.
I believe nichicon sort of bought the brand/factory.

and yes, they are quite big and quite expensive compared to electrolytics.
Don't know if it worths to put them into cassette decks, they would hardly fit size wise.

a couple years ago, i was considering those nichicon/ICEL films to refresh the crossover caps of some loudspeakers.
Funny that, even if they are made in Italy, i can find and get them just through mouser.

https://www.icel.it/it/
 
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