Phase Linear

[Northwinds]

skynards 400 was one of the first 5 original "A" boards and there have been so many inmprovements just in the quasi series that it's not a fair comparison. The "A"s are noisier, exhibit some turn on/off thump, and not quite as clear as a "C" board. Granted it's still a world better that stock but there has also been a large improvement just in Joe's product.

This is what I was thinking about because Blackie in Quasi form is an insane amp, quiet as a mouse, no thinps and unbelievable response all the way across the hearable spectrum. Sally has a wider soundsatge but not by all that much. She seems a bit smoother while Blackie just wants to slap you in the face with in your face sound. I will miss her but a matched pair of FC amps is better in the longrun when I eventually will put them both into duty. Right now, all I have is an extra set of SM-120s that I put crappy Pioneer 12" woofs into. My Bose 501's would be destroyed by a WOPL400 quickly

 

[Skynyrd77]

Hmmmm... I wonder if I would really be able to hear how the headroom makes a difference since Sally can destroy my CV's by herself. To experience the headroom, I need speakers that handle significantly more power becasue Sally is not even breathing hard when she shuts down the highs and mids. I am sure the headroom on Sally is far higher then the rated output in microsecond instances, is this a correct assumption Lee? Reserve headroom peaks could spike near double or more rated output with the bigger reserve power caps right ?

When i have a hard time typing what I hear! The 700 blew my mind. Everything about it was amazing. This 400 I have is very impressive but not even close to the same. The presence ,sound,color,image is all very diff!!!

 

[Northwinds]

Jase I have run a lot of 700's and 400's and your description matches mine, when around 200 watts they sound pretty much the same but even at that output the 400's headroom suffers compared to the 700. When getting to Mach 8 the 400 has nothing left to give to a big transient whereas the 700 will make you shit your pants sometimes. Timdalf has a favorite song he loves to put on when no one is watching, it comes on at full tilt boogie in the first 2 notes and whether you know it's coming or not when the 700 is set to kick ass you can't help but jump. I'll always have a 400 quasi and FC 400 and 700. The bass is quite a bit different init's presentation, and in awhile you and Kyle will be able to side by side compare an FC WOPL and Quasi WOPL...

This goes back to my assertion that to truly enjoy a 700, I need more power handling speakers. I may be able to experience a little of it but my E-712s are only rated at 300w each

 

[laatsch55]

Hmmmm... I wonder if I would really be able to hear how the headroom makes a difference since Sally can destroy my CV's by herself. To experience the headroom, I need speakers that handle significantly more power becasue Sally is not even breathing hard when she shuts down the highs and mids. I am sure the headroom on Sally is far higher then the rated output in microsecond instances, is this a correct assumption Lee? Reserve headroom peaks could spike near double or more rated output with the bigger reserve power caps right ?

In general that is correct Ron, I suspect my K's have handled 800-900 watt peaks, but it's the "clean power " aspect that gives our speakers a fighting chance, but ya gotta remember the caps supply additional current not voltage..

 

[laatsch55]

My K's are only rated at 100 watts continuous...

 

[frhodes]

PB Joe the coffee can myth has no basis. Ed has researched this story extensively. A "coffee Can" amp basically has to do with the lexicon of the era. In electronics circles of the time a "coffee can" project was simply a crude prototype with a very limited chassis. Ther is no wayt a 700 could be made with no transformer, yes you could BR the AC mains in but that would only give you rail voltage of 84 volts. A Bridged version of the PL design was tried in the first few models when the outputs for a 700 had the same count as the 400's and was a failure from a reliability stand point. They got em to work, but not for long. Ed has one that he is attempting to rebuild but there are no schematics or other supporting documentation. I have pics of it if anyone is interested..

Bob Carver and his coffee can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YpUl9YwjvM

 

[Skynyrd77]

My K's are only rated at 100 watts continuous...

I'm using 12s cv's they handle 300 just like yours Ron!!

 

[Northwinds]

I'm using 12s cv's they handle 300 just like yours Ron!!

Jason, are you forgetting you smoked a 15"? My 12" CV's are not modded like yours. If Sally can shut down the mids and highs without breaking a sweat, with the 700 they stand no chance LOL

 

[Northwinds]

In general that is correct Ron, I suspect my K's have handled 800-900 watt peaks, but it's the "clean power " aspect that gives our speakers a fighting chance, but ya gotta remember the caps supply additional current not voltage..

See, that's where I get confused. I thought bigger caps supply more current when the amp needs it and I assumed that dynamic transients fell into that need. If the amp needed more current to reproduce certain frequencies at certain times, the caps could make sure the "headroom" would be there on demand. I am never going to understand this stuff LOL

 

[Skynyrd77]

Jason, are you forgetting you smoked a 15"? My 12" CV's are not modded like yours. If Sally can shut down the mids and highs without breaking a sweat, with the 700 they stand no chance LOL

No I smoked that 15 just to see if I could and did lmao! The powers there!! I didn't need it but what are auditions for lol! You will see a big diff I bet! But I haven't heard yours either!

 

[Skynyrd77]

See, that's where I get confused. I thought bigger caps supply more current when the amp needs it and I assumed that dynamic transients fell into that need. If the amp needed more current to reproduce certain frequencies at certain times, the caps could make sure the "headroom" would be there on demand. I am never going to understand this stuff LOL

Im with ya brother!! I only know what I heard lol

 

[laatsch55]

Jim, Bob loves to tell stories and I asked Ed about this...Dave O'brian never would confirm the coffee can aspect of that test but would without hesitation backup the 700 watts claim. The amp has been said to exist and not to exist. Bob has no reason to cotradict the story because as you can see he still gets a lot of mileage out of it. If and when I meet Bob, and some things are in the works that that might happen I'll bring that up. There are no known pics of the amp. I wish Ed would join and post on this subject because the amount of Phase Linear history he knows is exaustive..

To recap, IF there WAS a coffee can amp it had to be bridged, 84 volts being the max output rectified voltage, try that, put AC mains on a br and a couple 80 volt caps, so 84 volts would not make a 700, however a bridged 400 would....I think if it did exist Bob was lucky it lasted through the test and the fuse blowing was probably the output stage giving up the ghost...

Yo--Bob if you read this join up and line us out on the particulars!!

 

[Pure_Brew]

Bob Carver and his coffee can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YpUl9YwjvM

Yep that's what I just saw!

 

[Northwinds]

No I smoked that 15 just to see if I could and did lmao! The powers there!! I didn't need it but what are auditions for lol! You will see a big diff I bet! But I haven't heard yours either!

The powers there to do it with a 400 also Bro, I have had the woofs cracking momentarily on my CV's but prudently turned it down before VC damage. Sally can easily blow these E-712's

On a side note,not sure what Jer is doing with the stuff in Blackie but maybe you can do a deal for the stuff to upgrade yours to the latest Quasi version. I bet you will change your tune at least somewhat.I know the 700s have way more headroom but getting that headroom in my speakers is going to present a challenge without breaking something and it won't be the 700 LOL

 

[laatsch55]

Im with ya brother!! I only know what I heard lol

Bogger caps do supply more current as the trasformer can only supply what it can until saturation, the caps supply a steady DC voltage even though the AC waveform that supplies it goes o 0 voltage 180 times a second. PS supply caps act as a resevoir for current, being able to store energy, that's what makes DC voltage possible, it supplies the voltage and current during the zero ctossing of the AC sinewave. The voltage of a sine wave is directly proportional to it's height above and below the zero crossing , with the voltage becoming smaller as it approaches the zero crossing and becoming more as it approaches the peaks. voltage is measured either peak to peak or RMS. RMS being .717 of peak voltage. DC voltage is measured as how far above ground potential it is,....can't quite wrap my head around that one either...

 

[frhodes]

Bogger caps do supply more current as the trasformer can only supply what it can until saturation, the caps supply a steady DC voltage even though the AC waveform that supplies it goes o 0 voltage 180 times a second. PS supply caps act as a resevoir for current, being able to store energy, that's what makes DC voltage possible, it supplies the voltage and current during the zero ctossing of the AC sinewave. The voltage of a sine wave is directly proportional to it's height above and below the zero crossing , with the voltage becoming smaller as it approaches the zero crossing and becoming more as it approaches the peaks. voltage is measured either peak to peak or RMS. RMS being .717 of peak voltage. DC voltage is measured as how far above ground potential it is,....can't quite wrap my head around that one either...

So what is the difference between a cap and an audio grade cap?

 

[laatsch55]

Basically nothing other than a different recipe for the di-electric compound used between the plates and how those plates are connected. Joe could give you a much better answer but basically that's it.

 

[laatsch55]

PB Joe----have you even warmed up the heatsinks on the audition 700?

 

[Northwinds]

Lee, thanks for taking the time explaining this. It's a slow process understanding but I am getting there

Irregardless, Quasi or Full Comp versions of these amps stomp most amps into the ground easily. It's cool that we are to the point where we can pick out sonic differences and I am sure the future holds even better improvements. Win win for all

 

[Skynyrd77]

Lee, thanks for taking the time explaining this. It's a slow process understanding but I am getting there

Irregardless, Quasi or Full Comp versions of these amps stomp most amps into the ground easily. It's cool that we are to the point where we can pick out sonic differences and I am sure the future holds even better improvements. Win win for all

I owe you Ron for talking it up and getting me here. And I owe lee for the chance to hear one and I owe mark for making it possible to own 1 already. I am truly lucky! And glad to be part of such a awesome work in progress!!!