Being Objective

[speakerman1]

Being objective to me is about the gear. The music I understand. Usually it is this. I own the music thus I like it. In the gear it isn't a choice of liking or not. It is a choice of whether it improved the sound not the music. Has nothing to do with music at all. That is being objective.

I am going to test the gear with music I know and like subjectively. The gear I have no opinion on when I buy it. Here goes an explanation. The Parasound CDP has never left the garage. My CDs have. I'm sure the Parasound would sound great if I hadn't heard the Onix or the Shanling. The Onix sounded great till I hooked a DAC up to it and it sounded better.

Now being subjective about gear. Is when I look at a system and think I would not like that. I don't need 500 WPC blasting into a pair of CVs. Now this is where I'm subjective. I look at a pair of CVs. My mind goes I don't like these speakers. It may have been the gear hooked to the speaker that made them sound that way. I don't know. So will I buy a pair of CVs. Probably not. That is being subjective. When I test a new piece of gear I become objective.

Larry

Music has nothing to do with it. I think I will put that in my pipe and smoke it. LOL

 

[speakerman1]

Can you look at a piece of gear and be analytical about? If you are a person who is brand loyal I would say not.

I like tubes. I don't like Fisher very much. I have not listened to any Fisher tube gear. So if I look at the Fisher tube gear and say I won't like that. Then I am being subjective. If I hook up the tube gear. Will I be predisposed in my thinking? Don't know but I hope not. The question isn't if it is better. The question is does it improve the sound over the components I have.

In my thinking this is objective. I put the Onix CD 1 in the loop. It sounded good. Then I put the Shanling in the loop. It sounded better. Does that make the Onix a bad CDP. No. So then I thought. What would happen if I hooked the PT gear up to the Onix. I don't like the word better. Did it sound different? If the answer is yes. Then comes the question why. I didn't think it is a Shanling it must be good. That isn't my way of thinking. If the Parasound had done things different then it would be in the house.I read certain specs when I choose a component. I do not know what it will sound like though.

Now don't get me wrong. I like the Parasound. I'm not disappointed or unhappy. It is what it is. I won't trash a component by saying it is bad. I will say what I found out though. Would I buy another Parasound. Yes. Will this one go into rotation? Yes I will test it against the GF CDP. Now the subjective question. Which one will I pick? Don't know haven't compared. That is the objective answer.

Ok I'll give you an example. I have a plane at the gate with Fuel Flow fluctuation problems. One mech goes out and thinks. It must be a fuel pump problem. I have seen this before. He changes the pump. We run and the gage is bouncing every where. No fix. Just threw 1000s of dollars away and it isn't fixed. You can't put the old one back on. It has been red tagged. My thinking is this. There are a lot of components in that system. Transmitter, gage, pump. You have to be objective in your troubleshooting. 1st thing is to swap gages and see if it follows. Cheap and fast. Maybe the FF transmitter if it follows. So you grab the DMM and ring out the transmitter. It is good.. If I hadn't been objective we would be doing a term we use. Throwing parts at it. Before I do anything else. I clean the cannon plug. Guess what it is fixed. The other guy just cost the company a lot of money. I cost them a couple of hours and some contact cleaner. So I do know what objective means. And yes I can be. I have no expectations.

Larry

 

[speakerman1]

Can you look at a piece of gear and be analytical about? If you are a person who is brand loyal I would say not.

I like tubes. I don't like Fisher very much. I have not listened to any Fisher tube gear. So if I look at the Fisher tube gear and say I won't like that. Then I am being subjective. If I hook up the tube gear. Will I be predisposed in my thinking? Don't know but I hope not. The question isn't if it is better. The question is does it improve the sound over the components I have.

In my thinking this is objective. I put the Onix CD 1 in the loop. It sounded good. Then I put the Shanling in the loop. It sounded better. Does that make the Onix a bad CDP. No. So then I thought. What would happen if I hooked the PT gear up to the Onix. I don't like the word better. Did it sound different? If the answer is yes. Then comes the question why. I didn't think it is a Shanling it must be good. That isn't my way of thinking. If the Parasound had done things different then it would be in the house.I read certain specs when I choose a component. I do not know what it will sound like though.

Now don't get me wrong. I like the Parasound. I'm not disappointed or unhappy. It is what it is. I won't trash a component by saying it is bad. I will say what I found out though. Would I buy another Parasound. Yes. Will this one go into rotation? Yes I will test it against the GF CDP. Now the subjective question. Which one will I pick? Don't know haven't compared. That is the objective answer.

Ok I'll give you an example. I have a plane at the gate with Fuel Flow fluctuation problems. One mech goes out and thinks. It must be a fuel pump problem. I have seen this before. He changes the pump. We run and the gage is bouncing every where. No fix. Just threw 1000s of dollars away and it isn't fixed. You can't put the old one back on. It has been red tagged. My thinking is this. There are a lot of components in that system. Transmitter, gage, pump. You have to be objective in your troubleshooting. 1st thing is to swap gages and see if it follows. Cheap and fast. If it follows it was the gage. If it doesn't you grab the DMM and ring out the transmitter. It is good. If I hadn't been objective we would be doing a term we use. Throwing parts at it. Before I do anything else. I clean the cannon plug. Guess what it is fixed. The other guy just cost the company a lot of money. I cost them a couple of hours and some contact cleaner. So I do know what objective means. And yes I can be. I have no expectations.

Larry

 

[Pure_Brew]

It's easy to understand that a technician or engineer can use instruments to design, troubleshoot or repair objectively.

However, when approaching audio we receive all the information through the loudspeakers, which are subjective instruments.

 

[speakerman1]

To perform a test you have a known base. In audio the known base would be your system. OK Let us say this about my system. I know the parameters of my speakers. To my ears they are a known value. Let us say I pay 500.00 for a CDP worth 10,000.00. I fall into a deal. We will not say better or worse. Objective and subjective is a frame of mind. Well I put that CDP into my system. See you guys talk about synergy. I have no clue how to understand that concept. So the sound changes from the complete system. See if I thought that the 10,000.00 must improve the sound. Then I'm subjective. Now being objective would be my sound stage was smaller and my highs weren't as fast. I was trying to get my head around what Lee said about the highs being smooth. I don't listen to horns so I don't understand what smooth is. I want a fast tweeter and let the music be smooth or not. I can't say he is wrong or right. It would have to be pointed out to me what he means. You can't describe something. If I have never heard it. I can look at horn speakers and say they aren't an option. I don't have the space. That is being objective. Being subjective to me would be me buying a house for the speakers. Not the other way around. Let me ask a question. Moving the Vandies to my living room. Should they sound better in the larger room? To be honest I don't know. I know I have to turn the volume up to get the same results.

30 years of being objective doesn't make a subjective person. There are things you guys talk about I just don't understand. They aren't a part of my world. So I can't understand. There are 2 things in my system that I am unsure of. The jury is still out. The Vandys and the Micro. They sound good. I'm just not sure how good. Am i going to buy new speakers and a new TT. Not in the foreseeable future. Think I will make due with what I have in those areas.

Larry

 

[Web Police]

Your taking all the fun out of the gear. When I try something new it is all subjective to me. The first impression is looks of the gear, if it can't pass the first impression test and look nice then forget about specs. Second brand name is important. Would I rather have a 500wpc Pioneer or Yorx Amp?

Most of the gear I audition sounds fairly similar. Granted there are subtle differences, but I chalk them up to my mood, the music being listed too, the time of day etc, etc. I can usually say there is a difference in the sound, but I cannot decide if one is better than the other unless they are worlds apart.

Better/high end gear like high def tv's lets me spot the short comings in the original source material, and does not necessarily make the same old lousy recording sound any better.

I am subjective about everything in life so why should audio gear be any different? If that makes me shallow, then so be it.

Whadda you want Roseanne Barr or Jessica Alba?

 

[jbeckva]

Hey man, don't be joking mah Yorx... This was my very first "big boy" stereo... (LOL)

 

[speakerman1]

Your taking all the fun out of the gear. When I try something new it is all subjective to me. The first impression is looks of the gear, if it can't pass the first impression test and look nice then forget about specs. Second brand name is important. Would I rather have a 500wpc Pioneer or Yorx Amp?

Most of the gear I audition sounds fairly similar. Granted there are subtle differences, but I chalk them up to my mood, the music being listed too, the time of day etc, etc. I can usually say there is a difference in the sound, but I cannot decide if one is better than the other unless they are worlds apart.

Better/high end gear like high def tv's lets me spot the short comings in the original source material, and does not necessarily make the same old lousy recording sound any better.

I am subjective about everything in life so why should audio gear be any different? If that makes me shallow, then so be it.

Whadda you want Roseanne Barr or Jessica Alba?

Being objective can be very rewarding. You have no preconceived notions on what it will sound like. So to me it is like opening a Christmas present. It is all new. That way you aren't upset if it doesn't sound like you thought it would. Every piece of gear has pluses and minuses. Yorx included. LOL

Larry

 

[Web Police]

Being objective can be very rewarding. You have no preconceived notions on what it will sound like. So to me it is like opening a Christmas present. It is all new. That way you aren't upset if it doesn't sound like you thought it would. Every piece of gear has pluses and minuses. Yorx included. LOL

Larry

I will try new equipment, but it is just that everything plays into my evaluation from the preconceived notions to the looks to the feel of how the knobs turn if it even has knobs. Sometimes I am surprised and sometimes I say meh!

My audio gear quest is pretty much over as I like what I have and my pocket book doesn't need any new expenses.

 

[speakerman1]

Last week while checking the LPs for noise. I ran into some very bad engineered LPs. I'm glad I played one after it. LOL If it would have been the 1st LP after I set up the TT. I may have thrown the Micro. LOL

Larry

 

[speakerman1]

Looks are no biggie for me. Knobs turning at the most I have 2 knobs except on the Hafler and the Carver pre.s On the Hafler I have been thinking of pulling the knobs by bypassing them. Get them out of the circuit. I could have a piece named Crap. I don't care. If Yorx built a 500 WPC I don't think it would be at Walmart. That isn't why I'm posting here.

Let me start over. If a pr. of 30.00 ICs sounded better. Do you think that maybe the higher in price the better they get? I don't know. It took me 6 months to hear a difference. Would I pay 500.00 a pr. is a different story. I had to figure out what I had done different. I did like the look of the new Parasound though. I looked and thought that looks nice. Went on about my day. Didn't think about it sound wise. LOL

Larry

 

[mlucitt]

Larry has a good point. Have you ever wondered why cars come in so many colors? Sound quality is similar, hard to justify why or how one is better than the other, but it gives the marketing guys something to play with. If you take horsepower in cars or watts in audio, those are pretty objective (even though there has been manipulation with BHP, RWHP, Computed HP, etc. and Peak watts, RMS watts, Music power, PEP, etc.). Not much to market except the comparison of one models HP or watts against the other, but the style of the equipment and the quality of the sound appeal to everyone differently. The marketing forces try to give us what they think will appeal to us, therefore it sells. If they can get a group to agree that something like solid aluminum face plates or reserve bass power is better, they can charge more for it even though it may not cost them anything for the difference.

Mark

 

[orange]

Hey man, don't be joking mah Yorx... This was my very first "big boy" stereo... (LOL)

Word. I'm missing a hub on my darned RS Chronosette stereo clock radio but it keeps time and plays AM and FM stereo. I have a "Zenith" AM/FM stereo cassette recorder clock radio with a stereo wide feature that doubles as a WIDE AM switch (not noted on the set) and a ...37?W Wall Of Sound that needs help...I have a thing for the crunchy frog sets of the world.

 

[speakerman1]

Not making fun. Well maybe. LOL Yorx isn't even low end though. LOL It serves a purpose. I have a walmart special. LOL It had input RCAs. Lot of music been played through it. Lot of testing. Being objective is being able to accept it is what it is. You could do a lot of things to the Yorx; but it would be a polished turd. If you want a Rotel shop for a 1979 integrated one. Very nice amp and hard to find. Have you ever heard a Rotel? Very different sound.

With the SP12. I had the money and I wanted to know. I mean I used the same components as some very high end manu. Most not even all together. I would like to hear the fruits of my labor. LMBO Tuned attenuators that have the resistors laser cut. Will it be worth it? Everything I did was for a certain sound. Smooth but neutral. I could not buy this pre for what I paid. Lee You have no idea what you building it for me means. WHERE is that Passive Preamp design? I'm going to do my thing I think. May take awhile. Yes I will or may go a little higher on it. All 16 ga silver wire. PTP solder. May see if I can get the schematic for the Shanling upgrade. This is all just experiments that I can afford at the time. It took a year to get the parts. Lee be truthful. What would you pay for the SP? would you put the money into it I did? Doing experiments you have to be objective. Lee doing tubes you will be learning a very valuable skill. Take that Akai apart and change just a couple things and see what happens. I don't know I was very stone at the time. LOL Wanna buy it?

Larry

 

[Pure_Brew]

Once I get the really big differences out of the way, it's easier for me to judge the smaller ones. Otherwise I'm putting lipstick on a pig - so to speak. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate nicely built interconnects that don't ruin the sound, or that are simply easier to work with etc. I like the Tara Labs IC I got from you, but mainly because they don't flop around and I can get a grip on them. The way they are made and remove, it would seem hard to damage the wire connected to those nice RCA ends. The monster ones I have are either hard to work with or too loose.

 

[speakerman1]

My Yorx. LOL

 

[laatsch55]

Larrt, not knowing what a high end tube pre should sound like or what they're worth I don't know . I took a 4 day hiatus from it then John went on vacation and got back and said it's gonna take a few days to get over vacation. The noise level is still unacceptable in the phono section. I love the component selection, ya did great there. It's not as clean or pure as the Spec 1 -----but can it be with tubes?? Getting the phono section quiet shoul drop the noise floor on the rest of it also. Would I pay that much for a tube pre?? Yep, if I wanted a high end tub e pre, yep. There are some things in this pre that are unique.

 

[Pure_Brew]

I wonder, if a pre-amp changes the sound in a system, even if it is for the better, how can one know for sure if it is really the more accurate given that there is nothing inherintly wrong with either? If ones interpretation of what a recording is supposed to sound like is the only basis for that decision, how can we know that the interpretation is also the most accurate? There are components that might make more things sound better, but the reality is that you can also hide the flaws, which might "sound" better but may not be as good in reality. Comparing by listening is biased and preamps shouldn't sound like anything.

 

[laatsch55]

Ok Joe, by "sound good" i mean neutral. What's neutral?? Hearing cymbals that ring, don't shusss, the "buzz" on bass guitar strings, things I know I've heard live, in person. The purest , cleanest amp that has gone through here is the Spec 2 I did for Chris, followed closely by Larrt's 700, and a lot of 400's right on their tail. The Spec must represent what i think i should be hearing. When someone moves their fingers up and down the frets, that sound I've heard a lot in person, and that particular sound, sounds "right" or it doesn't. Heavy bass passages can tax an amp that doesn't allow for it, resulting in "muddy" in indistinct bass, like what you hear going down the street. Some say bass is easy to reproduce, I think it's not easy to reproduce it right. All of the above are personal subjective opinmions, but I havwe yet to have some one leave the mancave without being impresssed with my set of horns.
Therein lies another curse. the curse of the horns. If a recording is substandard, with the sources I have and the gear that gets it to the speakers, they are VERY revealing, and there is no hiding an engineers or his equipments shortcomings. And when it's an exceptional recording-----------aw jeez-----sometimes the tears flow just from hearing something that beautiful. I have not listened to that many high end speakers, BUT, I've had some folks sit down here that have, and showing them my bucket list of speakers I want to audition, they can tell me in no uncertain terms to cross such and such off my list, in the past month I have crossed off; Van DersteenC-2's, Dahlquist DQ-10's, Dahlquist DQ-7's, Large Advents, HPM 1500's, and HPM 200's. Now, for what I have in the K-Horns, (3,000-3500) one would expect that they would hold they're own against most speakers, and so they have, at least in my little corner of the world. The mid horns are a quantum leap forward from the stock Klipsch units, the tweets slightly better and the woofs--- just a great pairing of cabinet space and drivers parameters. I could be a two sets of speaker kinda guy, IF I could lay my hands on some Ohm Model "F"'s, might even consider running the Soniphase SL6 bass bins with the Ohm's handling the mids and highs. But for sheer musical and physical impact, which is how I listen 80% of the time, I have not heard anything that will even approach what I have now. At this very moment -Younger Brother-- " The Last Days of gravity" is blowing away the last remnants of a very frustrating week at work, which my syatem has always been expected to do. I don't blow up and scream and holler at work when things turn to shit, just slap on some gloves and take care of business, the ass eatins can come later. But that has some consequences also, which music can if played loud and well enough cuts the continuation of that frustration because---YOU CAN NOT HELP BUT BE OVERWHELMED----and all attention is on what you hear. It has helped keep me sane since the age of 18.

 

[laatsch55]

Need to figure out how to supercool voice coils, liquid nitrogen, peltier junctions..........