What would you pay for a decent but basic speaker cable?
- Thread starter Chris Cables
- Start date
Cable ends and connectors oxidise and degrade over time. Electrons flow over the surface of connectors and cables as well as through them.
You might notice an improvement by re-terminating those 30+ year old cables using new connectors or thoroughly cleaning the old ones.
Chop the existing exposed/bare ends of the cables off back to the jacket and prepare new ends for the connectors.
Clean the amp and speaker terminals with Brasso if they're also 30+ years old.
It may be even more interesting for you to record and measure a frequency sweep before and after (for comparison) if you have the means to do so.
Before you neg that idea as a potential improvement just try it. It will cost you a lot less than a 'load of cash'.
I advised several customers to do that who all messaged me to say 'I'm interested in some new cables, mine are really old now'.
Suffice to say, they all tried it, noticed an improvement and didn't order cables from me. Cost them nothing but time. Cost me some 'lost sales' but was satisfying to hear they profited at least.
(I hope never to be accused of being an 'unethical' cable seller
)
You're also correct to say that potential improvements can be found before renewing cables. Speaker repositioning would be the next logical step to explore for tangible gains.
You might notice an improvement by re-terminating those 30+ year old cables using new connectors or thoroughly cleaning the old ones.
Chop the existing exposed/bare ends of the cables off back to the jacket and prepare new ends for the connectors.
Clean the amp and speaker terminals with Brasso if they're also 30+ years old.
It may be even more interesting for you to record and measure a frequency sweep before and after (for comparison) if you have the means to do so.
Before you neg that idea as a potential improvement just try it. It will cost you a lot less than a 'load of cash'.
I advised several customers to do that who all messaged me to say 'I'm interested in some new cables, mine are really old now'.
Suffice to say, they all tried it, noticed an improvement and didn't order cables from me. Cost them nothing but time. Cost me some 'lost sales' but was satisfying to hear they profited at least.
(I hope never to be accused of being an 'unethical' cable seller
)You're also correct to say that potential improvements can be found before renewing cables. Speaker repositioning would be the next logical step to explore for tangible gains.
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Halloween sale at my Etsy and Marktplaats. Ends November 3rd.
For Etsy customers:
10% discount for 1 item. Automatically applied at checkout.
20% discount for 2 items. Use code HAL20
25% discount for 3 or more items. Use code HAL25
https://www.etsy.com/shop/ChrisCablesStore
For Marktplaats customers:
Same disocunts apply. No codes required.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/u/chris-cables/9758814/
For Etsy customers:
10% discount for 1 item. Automatically applied at checkout.
20% discount for 2 items. Use code HAL20
25% discount for 3 or more items. Use code HAL25
https://www.etsy.com/shop/ChrisCablesStore
For Marktplaats customers:
Same disocunts apply. No codes required.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/u/chris-cables/9758814/
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2011
- Messages
- 74,874
- Location
- Gillette, Wyo.
- Tagline
- Halfbiass...Electron Herder and Backass Woof
Chris, I'll give ya one thing...ya got balls lad.. I was sold on better terminations and better wire as soon as my equipment was good enough to expose differences in transference modes and materials.
With many of us louder is better rockers from the 70's, subtleties of cable differences were not much considered when our worry was adequate amperage capacity with no choke points!!
As my equipment jumped in resolution by leaps and bounds, so did my appreciation of most things affecting that. Spent several days terminating XLR IN/OUT cables to go out the ATS OUT and IN THE ATS IN...one day the variable was voltage. One day the variable was gauge, one day single conductor, one day stranded, one day LOTS of current..
All looked at through 175 step-slow , distortion sweeps, jeez,the reams of paper flew!! Thru my drug fueled research one thing was certain Wire!! Really?? fuckin wire???!!!
With many of us louder is better rockers from the 70's, subtleties of cable differences were not much considered when our worry was adequate amperage capacity with no choke points!!
As my equipment jumped in resolution by leaps and bounds, so did my appreciation of most things affecting that. Spent several days terminating XLR IN/OUT cables to go out the ATS OUT and IN THE ATS IN...one day the variable was voltage. One day the variable was gauge, one day single conductor, one day stranded, one day LOTS of current..
All looked at through 175 step-slow , distortion sweeps, jeez,the reams of paper flew!! Thru my drug fueled research one thing was certain Wire!! Really?? fuckin wire???!!!
Haha! Probably the best way of researching anything! Different mind-states brings with it different perceptions and levels of clarity you wouldn't otherwise experience perhaps.
Experimentation is the key though. The differences between cable variables are indeed subtle and I only ever advise a 10-15% max perceived difference when comparing. But those differences are amplified by our noodle and seem greater.
There's so much we know and don't know about how we translate audio signals past the ear but it's great that people are still pursuing research, testing and measuring.
Alpha Audio in NL did an amazing comparison study between IC's, speaker cables, power cables etc. They inccluded a couple of my own models in the test and it was really interesting to observe the outcomes.
They dove into the science and started measuring things like 'propagation' (timing) etc - how some cables can sound 'relaxed' while others can sound 'active/exciting' etc.
Give it a watch, it's pretty interesting:
Interlinks don’t do anything! Or do they? 32 rca cables analyzed
The article
Experimentation is the key though. The differences between cable variables are indeed subtle and I only ever advise a 10-15% max perceived difference when comparing. But those differences are amplified by our noodle and seem greater.
There's so much we know and don't know about how we translate audio signals past the ear but it's great that people are still pursuing research, testing and measuring.
Alpha Audio in NL did an amazing comparison study between IC's, speaker cables, power cables etc. They inccluded a couple of my own models in the test and it was really interesting to observe the outcomes.
They dove into the science and started measuring things like 'propagation' (timing) etc - how some cables can sound 'relaxed' while others can sound 'active/exciting' etc.
Give it a watch, it's pretty interesting:
Interlinks don’t do anything! Or do they? 32 rca cables analyzed
The article
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2011
- Messages
- 74,874
- Location
- Gillette, Wyo.
- Tagline
- Halfbiass...Electron Herder and Backass Woof
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2011
- Messages
- 74,874
- Location
- Gillette, Wyo.
- Tagline
- Halfbiass...Electron Herder and Backass Woof
Interesting video.
It really serves to verify that marketing bullshit, gadgets and gizmos are going to ultimately be proven to be detrimental to audio quality or are unqualifiable/unquantifiable.
AQ probably thought people like this dude, Amir or anyone else etc aren't going to measure them. 50pF/m is going to make an audible difference for analog signal cables, just ask how important total signal-path capacitance is to any TT user!
Measurements shouldn't really determine whether you buy or don't buy any given cable. A purchase should be decided via a listening test and whether you're enjoying the music while not necessarily 'listening to the equipment', but people like to see measurements of course.
Yeti here in NL sell a power cable for €3500. They tout the conductivity specification of 220 Siemens as the main selling point.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/audio-...s/m2121869707-yeti-ultrapower-1-5m-powercable
Maybe that's legit - Pouillet's law is proven and proposes that electrons become more free-flowing the larger the conductor. Whether that's a real benefit for connecting equipment to the mains is where it becomes pretty subjective, but there's the basis for just one aspect of a purchase decision.
OK, so if that aspect translates into how good or not a power cable is then my own Mamba cable, at 268 Siemens/m is obviously better - it has a higher conductivity value and lower electrical resistivity. The cable I use probably just has more copper at 4.5mm² per conductor wire. Yes, overkill/unecessary.
I charge €270 for my cable. More than 10 times less than the cost of the Yeti cable and the AQ Thunder etc, becasue I think that's a fair price while still being able to turn a profit.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/seller/view/m2185312148
How do AQ and others justify or quantify their price points? Yes, they have higher overheads, marketing, distribution, salary costs but come on...! I suspect Yeti, like me is a one-man band. I could be wrong but if he is you can't expect to price your products in line with global outfits like AQ.
BTW, it's the last day of my Halloween sale. lol
It really serves to verify that marketing bullshit, gadgets and gizmos are going to ultimately be proven to be detrimental to audio quality or are unqualifiable/unquantifiable.
AQ probably thought people like this dude, Amir or anyone else etc aren't going to measure them. 50pF/m is going to make an audible difference for analog signal cables, just ask how important total signal-path capacitance is to any TT user!
Measurements shouldn't really determine whether you buy or don't buy any given cable. A purchase should be decided via a listening test and whether you're enjoying the music while not necessarily 'listening to the equipment', but people like to see measurements of course.
Yeti here in NL sell a power cable for €3500. They tout the conductivity specification of 220 Siemens as the main selling point.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/audio-...s/m2121869707-yeti-ultrapower-1-5m-powercable
Maybe that's legit - Pouillet's law is proven and proposes that electrons become more free-flowing the larger the conductor. Whether that's a real benefit for connecting equipment to the mains is where it becomes pretty subjective, but there's the basis for just one aspect of a purchase decision.
OK, so if that aspect translates into how good or not a power cable is then my own Mamba cable, at 268 Siemens/m is obviously better - it has a higher conductivity value and lower electrical resistivity. The cable I use probably just has more copper at 4.5mm² per conductor wire. Yes, overkill/unecessary.
I charge €270 for my cable. More than 10 times less than the cost of the Yeti cable and the AQ Thunder etc, becasue I think that's a fair price while still being able to turn a profit.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/seller/view/m2185312148
How do AQ and others justify or quantify their price points? Yes, they have higher overheads, marketing, distribution, salary costs but come on...! I suspect Yeti, like me is a one-man band. I could be wrong but if he is you can't expect to price your products in line with global outfits like AQ.
BTW, it's the last day of my Halloween sale. lol
It's unfortunate this video left out the most important aspect of a cable review... LISTENING and quantifying the human perception of sound!!
Did the cable have an audible impact on the sound of his system, using his specific equipment, in his specific room...
Also, if you look at the AQ cable construction, the DBS feature places 72V bias between the conductor and the surrounding insulator, NOT between each conductor. All of his measurements are between each conductor of the wire.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy many of Gene's videos, he has a great technical background and lots of great test equipment, but how many times in this video does he state "I don't understand" without tying the measurement results to potential impacts on his enjoyment of the resultant SOUND of different cable construction.
Rant off...
Did the cable have an audible impact on the sound of his system, using his specific equipment, in his specific room...
Also, if you look at the AQ cable construction, the DBS feature places 72V bias between the conductor and the surrounding insulator, NOT between each conductor. All of his measurements are between each conductor of the wire.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy many of Gene's videos, he has a great technical background and lots of great test equipment, but how many times in this video does he state "I don't understand" without tying the measurement results to potential impacts on his enjoyment of the resultant SOUND of different cable construction.
Rant off...
Depends on what the price, cable type and build quality of that power cable is. If its a garbage aliexpress cable with 0.5mm conductor size costing $20 then it won't matter much.
I know what you're gettting at though. The mains supply, esp here in NL is excellent, stable, clean. But a lot can happen between the outlet and your hifi, predominantly external interference.
I know what you're gettting at though. The mains supply, esp here in NL is excellent, stable, clean. But a lot can happen between the outlet and your hifi, predominantly external interference.
[QUOTE="Hexis22, post: 355239, member: 4967
...Also, if you look at the AQ cable construction, the DBS feature places 72V bias between the conductor and the surrounding insulator, NOT between each conductor. All of his measurements are between each conductor of the wire.
Rant off...[/QUOTE]
There are usually 2 capacitance specs for cables ; conductor-conductor and conductor-shield, but he's measuring exactly where you need to be measuring where it counts - where the signal passes. This is a 2-conductor cable so it's totally legit to measure it this way.
If you have something plugged in anywhere on or around that cable and it adds 60pF/m measured at the conductors/plugs then that's a pretty significant difference (loss) imo, especially when that dumb-ass gizmo is supposed to be 'tuning' the cable or whatever it's supposed to be doing! I can't imagine its' design aspect is to make the cable sound worse, is it?
For RCA cables I verified 55pF/m for vanDamme Silver Series LoCap55 measuring between the conductor and shield allowing for some small local losses. vanDamme has 3 capacitance values for these cables and all of them make an audible difference in the 10-20kHz range.
Some cable manufacturers seem legit, while others i.e. AQ, seem dubious as ever. William Low is more of a marketeer than than an 'audio expert'. Directionality for cables? Give me strength!
Use this in my 'Crystal Clear' cable ad (sorry for Dutch language)
...Also, if you look at the AQ cable construction, the DBS feature places 72V bias between the conductor and the surrounding insulator, NOT between each conductor. All of his measurements are between each conductor of the wire.
Rant off...[/QUOTE]
There are usually 2 capacitance specs for cables ; conductor-conductor and conductor-shield, but he's measuring exactly where you need to be measuring where it counts - where the signal passes. This is a 2-conductor cable so it's totally legit to measure it this way.
If you have something plugged in anywhere on or around that cable and it adds 60pF/m measured at the conductors/plugs then that's a pretty significant difference (loss) imo, especially when that dumb-ass gizmo is supposed to be 'tuning' the cable or whatever it's supposed to be doing! I can't imagine its' design aspect is to make the cable sound worse, is it?
For RCA cables I verified 55pF/m for vanDamme Silver Series LoCap55 measuring between the conductor and shield allowing for some small local losses. vanDamme has 3 capacitance values for these cables and all of them make an audible difference in the 10-20kHz range.
Some cable manufacturers seem legit, while others i.e. AQ, seem dubious as ever. William Low is more of a marketeer than than an 'audio expert'. Directionality for cables? Give me strength!
Use this in my 'Crystal Clear' cable ad (sorry for Dutch language)
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The only way directionality matters in a cable is when the ground is floated on one end. But, even then, I'd simply indicate where it is and/or is not terminated at the end, and let the user decide which end to lift the ground at.
My preamp to power amp cables are balanced that terminate at two RCA connectors at the amp end, but the RCA shield is floating at the amp end (basically a banana jack) so the amp becomes a mono amp.
My preamp to power amp cables are balanced that terminate at two RCA connectors at the amp end, but the RCA shield is floating at the amp end (basically a banana jack) so the amp becomes a mono amp.