Speaker Cable

ksrigg

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#1
I do not want to start a war here, but does anyone have recommendations for speaker wire, or cable? I have always been in the "wire is wire" camp, but setting up the KHorns, I want to use something relatively good. I am thinking thicker is better. I have typically used a 14/4 wire, with 2 connections per speaker getting me somewhere near 11 gauge equivevalent..

I have been looking at either Canare, or Choseal cable. I found Ghentaudio in China can make the cables cheaper than I can even buy the raw materials. I'm thinking 4 meters and the costs are either $96 for Canare, or $75 for Choseal. That includes shipping..heck, the TechFlex is about $30 cost, the wire about $25 and the connectors about $20, so I don't think I can even buy the components to make cables as cheaply as he is selling them..



http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/s01.html

http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/s02.html

He also makes interconnects and a bunch of other stuff..


What do you guys think?
 
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Fishoz

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#2
There is a guy on ebay - goes by Maze Audio. Usually only lists interconnects but he will do speaker lengths. I did buy some jumpers from him - was impressed with his product. He did quote me around $200 for bi-wire 8ft lengths. Might be more than you're willing to go but he does use good wire (256 to 463 strand OFC). His jumpers did impress me.

And yes...you probably opened a can of worms. To each his own on cables as far as I'm concerned. They guy that sold me my speakers now wants to sell me some Purist cables for $1250.......I don't think so!!!

Good luck.
 

marcok

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#3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegrapher's_equations
This is the "law" for cables .
It's very complex , but for our application we could consider only 3
critical cases :
a ) inductive factor at highest frequencies for speaker cables
b) capacitive factor for MM carts
c) ground loops for line longer than 15 /20 '
Condidering that the line are generally very short ,these are the solutions :
a) use at least AWG 11 gauge for speakers
b) use low capacitance cables for turntable ( 150/ 160pF / mt )
c) use decouplig transformers , but this case is not common .
The most important things are the connections !!!!!!
Ciao
Marco
 

62vauxhall

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#4
Thanks to 31 years working with "consumer audio", speaker wire and cables are a favorite rant. Before I got into that business, speaker manufactures and the local dealers of what was considered high end gear recommended lamp cord of increasing thickness dependent on run length. In 1980 I wound up working at one of the dealers I used to haunt and about that same time, Monster Cable made their debut with speaker wire. Since then that segment of the business mushroomed with lots of new wire and cable companies entering that market. When 5.1, 6.1 & 7.1 hit the shelves, I'm sure those guys thought they'd died and gone to heaven. The profit margins of cable and interconnects is huge so the encouragement to up sell is obvious.

They all wanted to re-invent the wheel. Some of the speaker wires examples were novel to rediculous and solid copper was a fad for a while because of the "skin effect". High frequencies are supposed to gravitate to the outside of a conductor and low frequencies to the center therefore, multi stranded was a negative. I and my co-workers experimented with solid wire but none of us noticed any difference and we concluded if there was any difference it was not audible.

We all liked the idea of oxygen free copper wire and usually incorporated 12 gauge runs of that in our systems. I surprised myself once by setting up a sound room demo with garden variety 16GA speaker wire (silver one side one side copper) on one channel, oxygen free Monster on the other, pre-amp in mono and used the balance control for a side to side comparison. There was a demonstrable difference so we all sold upgraded wire with lots of systems. One of the HiFi magazines printed an article once claiming a 10% rule whereby that much of a system's cost should be spent on speaker wire and interconnects and we used that extensively.

Sometime in the early 1990's the Denon/Mission rep for the company I was with started carrying Kimber Kable. He at least owned good gear and was a HiFi hobbyist - most weren't. Since he had a personal interest in audio he did his research and what he said made sense. I bought some Kimber 4VR (grey & black) speaker wire for myself, think it is good choice and as far as I know, still available today. It has two grey conductors and two black each with 7 strands of oxygen free conductors of varying thicknesses and the insulation is teflon. I use a single length to bi-wire my speakers. By now, Kimber have more expensive series' of speaker wire (they'd be crazy not to for business reasons) but they still have 4VR and 4PR. 4PR (black & brown) is the same as 4VR except the 7 strands per insulator are the same thickness. They should also still have 8VR (4 black - 4 grey) & 8PR (4 black - 4 brown) but 8 strands is twice the cost of 4 strands.

I soldered cheap banana plugs on the ends not because they sound better (they don't) but for easy disconnect when I have to shift stuff out of the way. If things stayed put indefinitely, I would just be using bare wire as I have for years.

On a side note, the "Specialty Audio" buyer (high end stuff) for that retailer (multi-store so lots of money) was a friend of mine and he had on loan a pair of Kimber interconnects made with pure silver wire and worth about $1500 at the time. I happened to win some Kimber PBJ interconnects in a sales contest (same thing except copper not silver) and worth $100. We compared my PBJ's with garden variety interconnects and there was a distinct difference. Comparing the $100 PBJ to the $1500 silver version, if there was a difference, it was barely noticeable. Another co-worker who designed and built power and pre-amps under the name CK Electronics called it the "knee curve" - how much does one spend for diminishing improvement.

If you can find Kimber Kable 4VR or 4PR get some of that but a decent oxygen free copper speaker wire would be good too. I remember reading an article on this topic by an engineer who said he doubts whether an electron knows what material it's travelling in. Look at the wires in your amplifier(s) and look at the wires in your speakers. Also, not to be overlooked is that those Kimber Kable speaker wires are braided therefore look cool - a high nifty factor.

...."Roger Russell – a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs details how expensive speaker wire brand marketing misinforms consumers in his online essay called Speaker Wire – A History. He writes, "The industry has now reached the point where [wire] resistance and listening quality are not the issues any more, although listening claims may still be made...The strategy in selling these products is, in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with something unique and expensive."

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

I believe in that 10% rule to a point. But, if someone's got the coin to spend $100,000 on a system, they can probably afford $10,000 on wires and cables. There are after all bragging rights.

Does anyone put dixie cups under their speaker leads anymore or those special non-magnetic floor decoupling speaker wire suspension pylons? Green felt pen ink to coat the edge of a CD? No coffee or tea 1 to 2 hours before listening your system? Affects the hearing don't you know.
 
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Lazarus Short

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#5
I have looked at a lot of gear under the hood, and have seen what the signal passes through at some points. Yes, sometimes even stamped steel [or whatever metal] at the speaker outs, especially with those push-down-insert-wire connectors. Given that, I don't obsess too much about wire.
 

marcok

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#6
Dear 62wauxhall,
I'm not sure of the capacitance effect on speaker cables . For me is negligile due to low impedance of speakers ( 4/8 Ohm ),
On the contrary inductance is not neglibile ; infact you could have 1 Ohm or more at 20 KHz with litlle gauge wires.
Ciao
Marco
Ps: I prefer to connect bananas with the screws locked with a small drop of paint.
 

62vauxhall

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#7
Dear 62wauxhall,
I'm not sure of the capacitance effect on speaker cables . For me is negligile due to low impedance of speakers ( 4/8 Ohm ),
On the contrary inductance is not neglibile ; infact you could have 1 Ohm or more at 20 KHz with litlle gauge wires.
Ciao
Marco
Ps: I prefer to connect bananas with the screws locked with a small drop of paint.
If you are referring to a drop of paint on the banana plug set screw - agreed and that's why I soldered mine on. The wire kept pulling off the plugs when I wanted to disconnect them from the speakers.

Not up my electronics theory so I had to look up the inductance you're referring to. The only speaker related inductance I was aware of was the voltage created by a voice coil's motion within the magnetic field. Sounds like what you're talking about is something which may be measurable but not audible, at least not to me. I was in a band starting at age 20 and spent way too much time next to way too loud drummers with way to loud cymbals and close to way too loud guitar players in way too small rooms for way too many years. If something's affecting loudspeaker characteristics at 20kH I would never notice it then or now, 40 years later. But I did point out a demonstrable difference between 25 cent per foot (silver and copper) speaker wire and a better quality $1 per foot speaker wire. I attributed the difference to metal purity as the cheap stuff was stiffer than the more expensive stuff.

Not sure what the home improvement stores are selling as lamp cord these days, probably junk because it's cheap for them to buy but I'm fairly sure better quality "lamp cord" can still be bought at dedicated electrical stores. I know it is on bulk rolls at at least one of the electronics parts stores I go to. The less stiff the wire - the purer the copper so in the case of lamp cord, limp is best.
 

marcok

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#8
I believe that moreless we are saying the same things .
Simply we use two different points of views .
But I think the conclusions are the same . For me it's good ,
considering that the matter is very complex .
Ciao
Marco
Ps : I use AWG 11 double wire cables ( 4mmq section ) and the price is approx . 3€ /mt .
avalaible in every big HW store .
 

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#11
I have looked at a lot of gear under the hood, and have seen what the signal passes through at some points. Yes, sometimes even stamped steel [or whatever metal] at the speaker outs, especially with those push-down-insert-wire connectors. Given that, I don't obsess too much about wire.
Yep and look at the internal speaker wires from your speakers crossovers to the speaker drivers. If the wire diameter in there is good enough for the speaker manufacturers then it is probably acceptable for short speaker wire runs.
 

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#12
Yep and look at the internal speaker wires from your speakers crossovers to the speaker drivers. If the wire diameter in there is good enough for the speaker manufacturers then it is probably acceptable for short speaker wire runs.
This. I laugh when I see people run expensive giant wires to their speakers. Look inside, all tiny diameter wire inside the speakers and also inside your amps
 

premiumplus

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#13
It's simple. Low resistance for speaker wires. Inductance and capacitance really aren't an issue at sensible lengths, say 15 or 20 feet. Personally, I have great luck with good copper extension cord wire, 14 gauge, the orange stuff. I've tried to hear a difference and I can't.
 

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#14
Actually, electrons are like all the people who drive behind each other for 50 miles and never pass. They don't even bitch, honk or fume.
 

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#16
I needed longer speaker cables, and none of the many I had were long enough. I looked thru the 'bay, finding nothing suitable among high-priced or unsuitable cables. Then I found a partly-used roll of 12 gauge zip, CHEAP. I like cheap, so I bought it. This is all for the amp I bought thru CL, and got for a good/great price. I didn't want to spend as much for wire as for the amp, and I could have easily.
 

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#17
I used to buy standard lengths of speaker wire from the dollar store. I could get up to 18 feet.
 

ksrigg

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#19
I've settled on some 14/4 OFC copper wire I already had a spool of. I think putting 2 of the 14 gauge wire to each banana will give me about 11 gauge equivalent, and I think, as long as it is pure copper, you are OK. It is 41 strand, and I read some interesting stuff at the Monoprice site concerning their 14/4 and cable lengths. Their price is a little higher than the Canadian price. I know the experts say more strands is better, but I don't know if I buy into that. You do have to be careful now though, as they are starting to sell wire that is now part copper and part aluminum, but it sure looks like copper. As to OFC 14/4, there is a person from Canada selling 250 foot rolls for about 90 bucks. (if anybody is looking) ...

You are right about the wiring used inside speakers, and amps..but I think the long runs of wire do give you the chance to up the speaker wire a little. And I know Lee is convinced that interconnects do make a difference. But that is another subject, I guess..
 
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