New (old and busted) bass bins

grapplesaw

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#21
Didn’t think it would be “good”... but rules were made to be broken. Sort of like putting hockey rink bass bins in your living room!
The dual 500 run about 122volts per rail. The combined rail is 244 witch is close to the max rating of the mj21195/96. I have yet to torch a mj21195/96 pair in the 500’s. Mj15024/25 melt all time in this configuration
 

AngrySailor

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#22
Yeah, got some insane output power readings, over 500 watts...but didnt live to long.

The 240 was a dual primary model that was headed to Aussie land.
I haven’t put a meter on my house circuit yet, I’m running two outlets, one from each hot leg but with Tim and the big carver the kitchen lights dim when shizz gets serious... the shop system with the two MX3000’s could blow two 20a breakers and would drag the line voltage down from mid ~126v to near 110v... slippery slope as rail voltage drops eh...
 

grapplesaw

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#23
I haven’t put a meter on my house circuit yet, I’m running two outlets, one from each hot leg but with Tim and the big carver the kitchen lights dim when shizz gets serious... the shop system with the two MX3000’s could blow two 20a breakers and would drag the line voltage down from mid ~126v to near 110v... slippery slope as rail voltage drops eh...
That is what got me thinking to try 240 volt everything is less stressed down stream from the amp and the transformer is quite capable of 240v
 

AngrySailor

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#24
That is what got me thinking to try 240 volt everything is less stressed down stream from the amp and the transformer is quite capable of 240v
Now mind that I DID break my house with the power on tap... had a length of copper water pipe unsupported for maybe 6’ and it cracked the day after I put the system in... been fine for 20 years so... it fractured and started dripping, seen the wet spot in my ceiling and caught it before it let completely loose. Checked after I fixed the leak by cranking the tunes up and it was vibrating. Put a few extra hangers in...
 

J!m

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#25
Our buddy Dan D’Augigistino suggests his new mega amps be run on 220 for optimal performance.

But what about using two transformers and two complete supply filter arrays (without de-rating them)? True dual-mono but besides that it should help with power reserve and recovery. Maybe go with higher amperage torroidals instead of the bricks too…

Where’s Gepetto?
 

George S.

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#26
And perhaps remote mount the transformers and capacitors. Super WOPL. A big pancake fan could be mounted to the old transformer opening. Pressurize the cabinet, exhaust holes strategically drilled through the rear of the chassis and heatsinks. Bias transistor temperature would be a factor to consider.
So many things to imagine, so little time.
 

laatsch55

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#28
Toroids have their own challenges. In rush current , a large magnetic field, and yes you want the power supply close. Joe told us why a couple days ago in another thread. The further you go the more the high frequencies suffer..
 
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#32
I’ll see if I have insurance after I run in the two 40 amp 240 volt feeds. One for front and one for the rear.
next amp I do I am going to do in 240 volt. It may be something of interest.
Hmmmm...great minds think alike!

My original D500 came from the factory with a dual primary transformer. I always thought that the +/- 120 Vdc output rails would be better supported by a 220 Vac input feed vis-a-vis the 110 Vac that they are currently supported by. (ie: I like it when the system has that sense of 'authority' during presentation. :0)

I have yet to open up the 2nd D500 -- with my luck it will only have the single primary transformer? But if it *also* has the dual primary transformer, then I may have no choice (due to the combination of external forces feeding into my 'moth to a flame' weakness for stuff like this) ...but to install *2* dedicated electric dryer-type circuits, (with no breaks in the run from circuit breaker box to wall outlets) go ahead & divorce *all* of the D500 AC power supply circuitry into it's own outboard chassis with a sympathic external look (ie; plain brushed front fascia) ...and Voila! No more distracting light dimming during life-size transients.

And for the casual (non-audiophile) observers, my system would go from 1 amp box (first 20 years) to 2 amp boxes (current plan of bi-amping w/110 Vac) to this proposed '4-box' divorced power supply 220 Vac twin D500 installation.

Note: This would allow me to use the following power cords into both of my outboard power supply chassis. This would be worth it alone for the visual unspoken yet implied "Fear This" factor. It would be similar to the difference when you open the hood of a '69 Camaro & you see the nice thin valve covers of a small block vs. opening the same hood and the first thing you spy are the much larger big block valve covers. (Due mostly to the porcupine heads...but who cares, they look huge, especially in the smaller engine bays.) Note: This visual trickery holds true even if the powerplant is a modern best effort 406ci small block overachiever vs. an original 396ci big block -- but part of anything 'fun' is the psych factor/magic show that you are providing your guest of honor. :0)

Of course, the big-picture barrier to all this is that I would have to first move in order to add the twin 220v circuits to a proper listening room.

...But in the past I seem to recollect moving for much less pressing reasons.

At any rate, if the twin D500 110v installation does not meet expectations? Then of course I reserve the right to initiate operation "Wretched Excess." (Of course Grapplesaw is on track to beat me to this audio nirvana, but I'm OK with that. I'd like to consider myself a supportive team player.)

"If some is good, then more is gooder." -- Unknown

Go, Glen, Go!

:0)
 

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#34
Now mind that I DID break my house with the power on tap... had a length of copper water pipe unsupported for maybe 6’ and it cracked the day after I put the system in... been fine for 20 years so... it fractured and started dripping, seen the wet spot in my ceiling and caught it before it let completely loose. Checked after I fixed the leak by cranking the tunes up and it was vibrating. Put a few extra hangers in...
Sir, you are my hero. Tesla would approve.
 

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#35
Toroids have their own challenges. In rush current , a large magnetic field, and yes you want the power supply close. Joe told us why a couple days ago in another thread. The further you go the more the high frequencies suffer..
There's a relatively simple fix for this concern. First, you would remove the whole AC/DC shebang (transformer/full-wave-bridge/large DC coke-can storage caps) out into the separate chassis. (NOTE: This also gives you room to also implement as much or as little 'RFI cleansing circuitry' as you deem necessary.)

From the divorced power supply chassis, you then run (for the sake of argument) the necessary length of welding cable to the amp chassis. Inside the original amp chassis you now feed your (already-purified) DC into a duplicate set of the coke-can capacitors. Put them where the originals were if you so desire.

Voila! Thanks to the inverse-squared law, you now have *far* less of a magnetic field trying to induce hum into all our precious signal path.

And while you can't claim to have double the DC power rail storage (because of the length of welding cable between the 2 cap banks, each geographically located at either end) ...by doubling the upgraded caps that Grapplesaw is already using, you would have *plenty* of 'right-now' reserve. Bring on the Kraftwerk! :0)

****

So yes, if you were to simply remove the existing transformer/full-wave-bridge/DC bulk storage caps outboard...and then just run DC power cables into your amp, there would be the drawbacks outlined in the whole C-100 discussion. But, IF done properly, the divorced AC chassis feeding into a 2nd set of coke-can DC storage caps in the original location inside your amp would be a win/win. (For both max-power transients + potentially lower noise floor from removing that huge pesky magnetic field from (trying to) couple 60Hz hum + hitch-hiking RFI hash into our precious signal path. (!)

So why didn't Bob Carver do this originally? I mean, we all know that he really was an 'out of the box' thinker! My best guess is that, as a businessman, he was simply trying to hit the price/performance curve in the sweet spot. By the same token, Pink Floyd relocated the transformers outboard (primarily to help with avoiding physical damage to the amp(s) chassis during constant shipping from concert to concert) ...so in reality we're not exactly breaking new ground here...

Given the above, we're enthusiasts, not businessmen, so we have an extra degree of freedom to contemplate and/or implement dumb stuff like this...in public, even. :0)

****

Maybe the above is only a quarter-baked idea...but I am guilty of thinking down this path every time I look at that dual-primary transformer.

Q: Is this a sickness or what?
 
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J!m

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#36
I had actually considered this approach myself- the four-box monoblocks.

I think physical implementation is critical for it to work well, and not end up a problem. Bottom box (with transformer(s)) top, and top box (everything else) bottom, should be steel, and thick enough for the expected emissions to be squelched, or, why bother? Counterpoint felt that copper plated steel was the hot ticket. The air gap between them is good as EMF is diminished very rapidly with distance, so that takes care of itself.

Female sockets on the top of the bottom, and bottom of the top, exist, and are in alignment such that distance for DC to travel is reduced as short as possible, and massive interconnection reduces loss. Copper "jumper rods" interconnect the chassis to one another. Perhaps integrate these into the feet, so they are "invisible" from the front.

Additional interconnection is necessary to avoid some Darwin award nominee sticking their snot-moistened finger into one of the DC sockets of the bottom cabinet and enjoying the light show of their ignited hair immediately prior to death...
 

grapplesaw

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#38
There's a relatively simple fix for this concern. First, you would remove the whole AC/DC shebang (transformer/full-wave-bridge/large DC coke-can storage caps) out into the separate chassis. (NOTE: This also gives you room to also implement as much or as little 'RFI cleansing circuitry' as you deem necessary.)



****

Maybe the above is only a quarter-baked idea...but I am guilty of thinking down this path every time I look at that dual-primary transformer.

Q: Is this a sickness or what?
I see you are fitting well with our somewhat crazy ideas here. Although these changes not necessarythree the concept is something a few of us have beeen throwing around. Lee, Perry and myself (Glen) have some toroidal transformers. They are illisr in the dual 500 thread. I plan on using three of them. They are 83 -0- 83 volt 600va primary output. I have been waiting on this project for a variety of reason. But one obstacle is now solved. I get a nice box pan brake so I can form some custom chassis.

so this will be a one off amp. Three toroidal’s running through bridge rectifiers into a common capacitor bank. Magnetic field may be able to be shielded or a separate power supply will have to be created. The toriod’s will have soft start for power on. I also considered a true dual mono with one toroidal per channel into dedicated storage caps. The third would remain off until output current was sufficient to trigger it to power and stay on Or just have a time delay when powering on. the third toroidal would run through two bridge rectifiers to feed extra juice to which every channel needed it If I setup a dual mono power supply. the combined output would be 1800va with 118 volt rails. I think this setup will supply more current under load than the dual500 which has 120 volt rails But as with all the phase linear this voltage drops of under exreme loads. We will see.

I may start this project in the new year. Then again it may never come to life as so many things get in the way.
 
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#39
I had actually considered this approach myself- the four-box monoblocks.

I think physical implementation is critical for it to work well, and not end up a problem. Bottom box (with transformer(s)) top, and top box (everything else) bottom, should be steel, and thick enough for the expected emissions to be squelched, or, why bother? Counterpoint felt that copper plated steel was the hot ticket. The air gap between them is good as EMF is diminished very rapidly with distance, so that takes care of itself.

Female sockets on the top of the bottom, and bottom of the top, exist, and are in alignment such that distance for DC to travel is reduced as short as possible, and massive interconnection reduces loss. Copper "jumper rods" interconnect the chassis to one another. Perhaps integrate these into the feet, so they are "invisible" from the front.

Additional interconnection is necessary to avoid some Darwin award nominee sticking their snot-moistened finger into one of the DC sockets of the bottom cabinet and enjoying the light show of their ignited hair immediately prior to death...
J!m,

I consider myself guiltier than most when it comes to the dreaded 'analysis leads to paralysis' syndrome.

But sometimes Necessity is the Mother of Real-World Concentrated Learning. Back in the day I was trying to help a buddy who wanted some affordable "Big-Fi" for the house he had just built. (With an enormous 2-story main living room) Using a deft touch while employing a triple-dog-dare that I couldn't refuse, he set a ridiculously low budget & bet that I couldn't deliver the goods.

Long story short? First I found a used Sansui 9090 receiver for ~ $1/Lb in working condition.
I then lucked into a pair of used VMPS towers for short money. (Too big to sell? Very poor WAF factor eliminated the buying competition? Or some combo of the 2? I simply don't know.)

At my house I put them together...and although there was plenty of 'there' there, it just wasn't right. Even with classical music with a wide dynamic range, it sounded loud...but at the same time, all the music sounded like it had been run through a compressor? Time was running out, and since I wasn't exactly working with 'legacy equipment', after reading around a bit I popped the cover off the 9090 & scoped the DC rails while playing organ music.

Sure enough, if I connected the 'A' channel of the scope to the + of one of the speaker outputs, and the 'B' channel to the DC rail (+ or -) I watched the rail voltage *sag severely* whenever a righteous transient occurred. Naturally, it seemed that I needed to stiffen the DC rails as much as possible. I installed new/larger DC power supply caps (got a little greedy, nothing dangerous) and bypassed them as the fashion dictates of the day would have you do. I then did some further electrolyic cap bypassing right at a handful of locations. Not too much math/science...just whatever seemed to make for a stiffer rail/flatter B channel scope display under load. (NOTE: I had the VMPS speakers being driven while testing my hackery -- you know, the no-BS testing where the rubber meets the road...)

****

When I was done, I had come in well under budget. (He already had a CD player to use as his source.) And to tell you the truth, this quick-n-dirty fix ended up sounding *way better* than it had any right to. (Part of this must have been the inherent acoustics of the large 2-story main room.)

Oh yeah, when that 1st deep organ note hit, (and it sounded like it came up from some subterranean place) the new owner could not have been any happier.

Sometimes, the cheap stuff ends up being a lot more fun than the big $ toys.

****

The point I was trying to illustrate is that with a basic plan + some ad-hoc experimentation, I'd be willing to bet that a '4-box monoblock' installation could be dialed in so that it delivers an amazing soundstage + lower noise floor + life-size effortless reproduction.

Disclaimer -- The above is a sample size of 1, your mileage may vary, etc., etc. But man oh man, the above was the essence of *fun*.

For what it's worth --
 
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#40
I see you are fitting well with our somewhat crazy ideas here. Although these changes not necessarythree the concept is something a few of us have beeen throwing around. Lee, Perry and myself (Glen) have some toroidal transformers. They are illisr in the dual 500 thread. I plan on using three of them. They are 83 -0- 83 volt 600va primary output. I have been waiting on this project for a variety of reason. But one obstacle is now solved. I get a nice box pan brake so I can form some custom chassis.

so this will be a one off amp. Three toroidal’s running through bridge rectifiers into a common capacitor bank. Magnetic field may be able to be shielded or a separate power supply will have to be created. The toriod’s will have soft start for power on. I also considered a true dual mono with one toroidal per channel into dedicated storage caps. The third would remain off until output current was sufficient to trigger it to power and stay on Or just have a time delay when powering on. the third toroidal would run through two bridge rectifiers to feed extra juice to which every channel needed it If I setup a dual mono power supply. the combined output would be 1800va with 118 volt rails. I think this setup will supply more current under load than the dual500 which has 120 volt rails But as with all the phase linear this voltage drops of under exreme loads. We will see.

I may start this project in the new year. Then again it may never come to life as so many things get in the way.
Glen,

Lurking elsewhere, it seemed that when interesting/out of the box ideas would be put forth into the public arena, everyone seemed to put *so* much effort into the "I'm right, and here's exactly why you are so wrong" arguments, it was just fatiguing to slog through it. Or, the all-knowing "Flame Linear" snark from some kid who was busy filling diapers while I was doing head alignments on hard disk drives the size of washer machines...and then going home & listening to my Phase Linear stereo that I enjoyed so much. (Oh buddy, give me a effin' break from your smarmy all-knowing self. Man, you've gone from filling diapers straight to filling websites with your sh*t -- Aaaargh! :0)

...But when I started looking for PL info seriously, I found this forum...and after a week or so of reading your banter, I decided it was the place to be.
Sure, no place is friction-free, I'm not even looking for that. But it just seemed that you guys were all pulling in the same direction...kinda like how it felt on the fighter wing flightline -- we may have disagreed a little, or even stepped on each other's toes on occasion...but on any given day, the overriding shared philosophy was to simply give our pilots the sharpest knives humanly possible.

So yeah, it feels good to have found a place where you can air out some 'hard-to-justify' ideas without hearing that 'FL' cr@p.

Here's hoping that between us all...that each of us reading this will eventually get to where we're going...

Cheers --
 
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