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Hook - Up Wire
- Thread starter speakerman1
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No doubt that silver is a better conductor. My mentor tells me that silver wire while clear and airy sounding, robs the music of the fine timbers body and depth that good copper gives. Horses for courses, you need to find out what works with what. IMHO you need to start looking for some wire like the stuff I had posted to you. Caveat is that you should use silver loaded solder WBT or similar.
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Graham there is a reason for the insulation. It is called FIRE. Now I'm not in the cryo stuff. Yes while it is cold the molecules get smaller; but it heats back up the molecules get larger again.
I use the silver to be efficient. The less resistance the less heat. Heat not good in electronics.
Larry
I use the silver to be efficient. The less resistance the less heat. Heat not good in electronics.
Larry
Heat is not a factor if you use the right size conductor. The insulation is basically just to stop connecting wires (and your fingers) from shorting out on each other. Cotton and silk are supposedly best as they are natural materials and perfect dielectrics as they do not store static charges. A friend related to me some years ago plastic materials hold static charges and will charge/discharge and microscopically spark between the dielectric and the wire carrying current. Don't know if this is true or the science behind it but my ears tell me the natural dielectrics are the way to go.
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The insulation is so if shorted it won't catch on fire. I bet if you sent it to me wired with cotton or silk they wouldn't let it trough. I'll pack you spool today.
I'm old and I'm senile. Not saying I'm smarter than you. I studied electricity for 4 years. Aren't a few components have a standard they can be off? So with the better conductor it working closer at its optimum rating.
Larry
I'm old and I'm senile. Not saying I'm smarter than you. I studied electricity for 4 years. Aren't a few components have a standard they can be off? So with the better conductor it working closer at its optimum rating.
Larry
Hi, I am new to the forum which was recommended by "stuwee" from the Polk Audio Forum.
In response to the topic, I have used both silver and copper hookup wire in a DAC I built a few months back. I typically use silver for digital signals and copper for analog. I have not done extensive listening tests to prove a good reason for this though. It seems to make sense in my brain though. For the silver (digital signal) wire I used VHAudio Pulsar Ag. And for the copper (analog signal) I used VHAudio 21 AWG Unicrystal Cu with AirLok dielectric. Good stuff. I am not affiliated with Chris at VHAudio at all other than being a customer, BTW. The wire seems to be good stuff to my ears, and seems to make sense with silver for digital and copper for analog.
Greg
In response to the topic, I have used both silver and copper hookup wire in a DAC I built a few months back. I typically use silver for digital signals and copper for analog. I have not done extensive listening tests to prove a good reason for this though. It seems to make sense in my brain though. For the silver (digital signal) wire I used VHAudio Pulsar Ag. And for the copper (analog signal) I used VHAudio 21 AWG Unicrystal Cu with AirLok dielectric. Good stuff. I am not affiliated with Chris at VHAudio at all other than being a customer, BTW. The wire seems to be good stuff to my ears, and seems to make sense with silver for digital and copper for analog.
Greg
This is a very interesting topic.
Who knows the answer..... really.
I have read of double blind studies where coat hanger wire and megabuck speaker wire tied for "best sounding" and where cheap *-Mart DVD players tied with megabuck CDP's for "best sounding".
I can not wait to hear an Onix CDP, and see what it is. From what I understand, it is simply beautiful and blows all other players out of the water.
For speaker wire I just use heavy guage OFC (copper) wire. I just don't know where psychoacoustics come into play. If you think something is going to sound better, generally it does. This is an area of huge debate. Measured improvements vs..HEARD improvements.....or is it perceived?
I know the line is fine, because I am always blown away by my sound system(s) after returning from a trip out of town...never ceases to amaze me. But day to day listening, I'm always looking for a way to improve the sound.
As far as the wire used to build an amp, I agree that one type or brand of wire has to be better than another, but HOW MUCH BETTER? Could you really distinguish the difference in a blind test, or a double blind test?
After a certain level, and where that lies, I sincerely doubt it.
Who knows the answer..... really.
I have read of double blind studies where coat hanger wire and megabuck speaker wire tied for "best sounding" and where cheap *-Mart DVD players tied with megabuck CDP's for "best sounding".
I can not wait to hear an Onix CDP, and see what it is. From what I understand, it is simply beautiful and blows all other players out of the water.
For speaker wire I just use heavy guage OFC (copper) wire. I just don't know where psychoacoustics come into play. If you think something is going to sound better, generally it does. This is an area of huge debate. Measured improvements vs..HEARD improvements.....or is it perceived?
I know the line is fine, because I am always blown away by my sound system(s) after returning from a trip out of town...never ceases to amaze me. But day to day listening, I'm always looking for a way to improve the sound.
As far as the wire used to build an amp, I agree that one type or brand of wire has to be better than another, but HOW MUCH BETTER? Could you really distinguish the difference in a blind test, or a double blind test?
After a certain level, and where that lies, I sincerely doubt it.
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I just sent Lee 6 pairs of one of the cheapest Tara Lab lines that blew his Monster ICs away. Next I'm sending him my Tara Bi-wires to see if he hears a difference. To me the silver hook-up wire is efficiency. Silver has the least resistance. So things inside run at their optimum.. I only use silver solder. Sound wise on the internal maybe maybe not. Don't know. Will soon see though.
Larry
Larry
I don't mean to offend anyone.
I just like discussion and often play the Devil's Advocate", so please don't take my comments the wrong way. I KNOW there are differences, I just like to quantify and quantify the differences.
I live in such a remote region, it would be impossible to do double blind testing with a group of audionuts. There simply aren't that many of us. I do think it would be interesting if someone in a metro area could round up a bunch of willing listeners and try to score some of things we are talking about, and see if the differences can actually be discerned on a score card....
Again I don't mean to discredit anything, just trying to get discussion going..
If I have offended anyone, I apologize.....you can't take me seriously all the time...if at all.
I just like discussion and often play the Devil's Advocate", so please don't take my comments the wrong way. I KNOW there are differences, I just like to quantify and quantify the differences.
I live in such a remote region, it would be impossible to do double blind testing with a group of audionuts. There simply aren't that many of us. I do think it would be interesting if someone in a metro area could round up a bunch of willing listeners and try to score some of things we are talking about, and see if the differences can actually be discerned on a score card....
Again I don't mean to discredit anything, just trying to get discussion going..
If I have offended anyone, I apologize.....you can't take me seriously all the time...if at all.
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No you were just putting your opinion out there. I was just giving my thoughts. I have proven wires to myself and others. I sold an 8 ft pair of used Audio Magic speaker cables for 800.00. I do have some expensive wires in my rack. I like them very much. I just rewired my Norman Labs with silver coated OFC 12 awg. Did the wire make a difference? I don't know. I did a lot at one time. I gutted them. The only thing inside was wire, inductors and caps. I pulled the CBs, the switches, and the light bulb. LOL
Larry
Larry
This is a great debate. On one side you have the practical folks who just want to see a blind test for side-by-side comparison. On the other hand you have speaker wire makers who want to feed their kids by selling more speaker wire, and they don't care how it sounds as long as you think it sounds good.
I have seen the best amplifiers money can buy. Two types - Audio Frequency (AF) and Radio Frequency (RF) in the Navy. General Electric built the AN/SQS-26CX SONAR, it transmitted around 3Khz (AF) and used a 80VDC 3000Amp motor generator power supply to drive 576 separate amplifier modules powering 576 (72 columns x 8 rows) in a cylindrical array, for a power output of about 300kW of pulsed power. This system was the largest electronics system in the world at the time ~1976. Whether you counted discrete components, circuit cards, equipment cabinets, or miles of interconnecting cables, it was the biggest. Wires? The wiring was multiple strand copper with Teflon insulation, the best money could buy.
The AN/SPS-49 RADAR was built by Raytheon. It transmitted in the L-band (851-942 MHz) (RF) and could develop 360kW of output power. At this frequency the electrons don't run through the wires, they run on the outside of the wires. Because the inside of the wires are useless, the power feed to the antenna (like a big speaker) is hollow. It's called a waveguide because that's what it does. It is primarily made of copper but the inside is coated with silver. The difference is that the waveguide is pressurized with dry nitrogen to prevent the silver from oxidizing. The tarnish on silver does not conduct at all, that is why silver, unprotected, is bad. The rest of the system used stranded copper covered with Teflon insulation.
Now, if the Navy has to fight a war with its wires, and can afford just about anything, and they use copper with Teflon insulation, that is what I am going to use. The difference in resistive density between silver 166 and copper 150 shows that copper is better by 16 Ohms per meter times the weight in grams/cm2. They are pretty close, but the density is important because it means that a silver wire of 22ga has the same resistance as a copper wire of 20 ga. Or to think of it differently, a silver wire 10" long has the same resistance as a copper wire that is 8" long, notionally. This is why they string power poles with aluminum 72, it has the same resistance as silver when used in a larger diameter (2.30 times larger); even at this larger diameter, the weight is less than the equivalent small diameter silver and much cheaper.
So use silver wire if you want. Just know that my copper wires will have less resistance than yours because I will likely use several sizes larger wire (it's cheap!) and my copper will not tarnish like the silver will. I will also use silver solder (4%) because it wets better, nothing to do with conductivity.
Mark
I have seen the best amplifiers money can buy. Two types - Audio Frequency (AF) and Radio Frequency (RF) in the Navy. General Electric built the AN/SQS-26CX SONAR, it transmitted around 3Khz (AF) and used a 80VDC 3000Amp motor generator power supply to drive 576 separate amplifier modules powering 576 (72 columns x 8 rows) in a cylindrical array, for a power output of about 300kW of pulsed power. This system was the largest electronics system in the world at the time ~1976. Whether you counted discrete components, circuit cards, equipment cabinets, or miles of interconnecting cables, it was the biggest. Wires? The wiring was multiple strand copper with Teflon insulation, the best money could buy.
The AN/SPS-49 RADAR was built by Raytheon. It transmitted in the L-band (851-942 MHz) (RF) and could develop 360kW of output power. At this frequency the electrons don't run through the wires, they run on the outside of the wires. Because the inside of the wires are useless, the power feed to the antenna (like a big speaker) is hollow. It's called a waveguide because that's what it does. It is primarily made of copper but the inside is coated with silver. The difference is that the waveguide is pressurized with dry nitrogen to prevent the silver from oxidizing. The tarnish on silver does not conduct at all, that is why silver, unprotected, is bad. The rest of the system used stranded copper covered with Teflon insulation.
Now, if the Navy has to fight a war with its wires, and can afford just about anything, and they use copper with Teflon insulation, that is what I am going to use. The difference in resistive density between silver 166 and copper 150 shows that copper is better by 16 Ohms per meter times the weight in grams/cm2. They are pretty close, but the density is important because it means that a silver wire of 22ga has the same resistance as a copper wire of 20 ga. Or to think of it differently, a silver wire 10" long has the same resistance as a copper wire that is 8" long, notionally. This is why they string power poles with aluminum 72, it has the same resistance as silver when used in a larger diameter (2.30 times larger); even at this larger diameter, the weight is less than the equivalent small diameter silver and much cheaper.
So use silver wire if you want. Just know that my copper wires will have less resistance than yours because I will likely use several sizes larger wire (it's cheap!) and my copper will not tarnish like the silver will. I will also use silver solder (4%) because it wets better, nothing to do with conductivity.
Mark