Gentlemen---The future of Phoenix

Looks like Joe had some work ahead of him if these are the same amps

Found this on another forum

So I bought four AV123 X-amps (monoblocks) used off of their forums, they arrived yesterday and I hooked them up. I found that one of them plays much louder with the same signal - like 10dB louder I posted on their forum but since they're all but dead in the water I'm not getting any response. I of course opened them up and looked for something that looks "adjustable" but didn't find anything - although a large section of components are enclosed in an aluminum heatsink that I didn't attempt to take apart yet.

Any ideas on what I should be looking for?

On a different note the amps come with cheater plugs as they have a bit of a "hiss". When I was hooking up the second one the backs of my fingers were rubbing on the amp below it and it felt like it was really sharp or something. I broke out the multimeter and found that the chassis - with the cheater plug in use - are carrying anywhere between 25 and 40 volts of AC? With the cheater plugs off this goes away of course. For now I'm just running them without the cheater plugs but something doesn't seem right about that? I measured all of them and they all have the AC running through them




Further down it mentions these were designed from Philips Class D amp modules???

Here's the whole thread

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/170961-issues-av123-x-amps.html
 
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Man, the more I delve into AV123 what a shitstorm! Perhaps it was a brilliant move, grab all their leftover stuff for cheap and have another platform ready to correct all the mistakes. I am thinking though using a platform from a largely derided company is akin to the "flame linear" angle though. Fighting an uphill battle? I guess I will wait for Lee to get done shooting holes and see what the deal is about these. Or maybe Joe, Jer and Larrt will pop on and explain the plan

It's looking like a freshly designed chassis and faceplate needs to be fast tracked to fit whatever the Bro's have planned?
 
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This is a really great discussion. If you are going to fail, it is a lot cheaper to fail on paper, after all.

@speakerman - No answers, just perspective gained through experience. Here are a few thoughts:
  • 100% mark up - no, not necessarily. That depends on the upfront investment and risk:reward ratio the supplier is comfortable with. And that can change from startup, low volume production and mid-volume production. Many folks might be happy selling a couple of chassis a month for a net of 20-25% if they have low upfront investment and are betting on the come of higher volume and volume price breaks. In the end, it is up for the independent vendor to decide, not common held retail/manufacturing wisdom.
  • In general, start up costs are in direct proportion of how large your goals are and how quickly you want/need to achieve them. If you are dealing with Angels and VCs, time is very limited so you need to raise additional capital for more aggressive marketing, hiring, etc. Clearly, this isn't what we are discussing. Organic growth is much less expensive but time to volume is much longer. Mass marketing is insanely expensive but grass roots Sandinista style marketing could work here.
  • Upgrades - yes, great idea. Caps, stepped attenuators, chrome faceplate, chassis, heatsinks, RCAs, binding posts, etc would allow someone to easily customize their unit with proven components.

@ Zach - I'd think breaking from the Phase Linear name would be necessary due to copyrights, etc. I'm not familiar so I ask, is there anyone of note that offers the same kit/DIY concept for solid state amps and preamps that the vacuum tube community has?

Trannies - My uncle is the outgoing president of Badger Magnetics. They specialize in low volume specialty transformers, inductors and other windings. I might be able to leverage my relationship with him to help out the cause (waive setup fees and minimum quantities). Maybe I'm kind of signing up to be the tranny guy. Oh wait, that didn't sound right...

@ Lee - I understand your position. However, I ask you to consider having a shopping cart PORTAL - a one stop place to get everything a person needs to scratch build whatever ends up coming out of these discussions. Then, individual orders would be passed through to every supplier in the chain automatically. I can't tell you how valuable one stop shopping is for someone like me who is still ascending the learning curve.
 
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RainDog911 said:
This is a really great discussion. If you are going to fail, it is a lot cheaper to fail on paper, after all.

@speakerman - No answers, just perspective gained through experience. Here are a few thoughts:
  • 100% mark up - no, not necessarily. That depends on the upfront investment and risk:reward ratio the supplier is comfortable with. And that can change from startup, low volume production and mid-volume production. Many folks might be happy selling a couple of chassis a month for a net of 20-25% if they have low upfront investment and are betting on the come of higher volume and volume price breaks. In the end, it is up for the independent vendor to decide, not common held retail/manufacturing wisdom.
  • In general, start up costs are in direct proportion of how large your goals are and how quickly you want/need to achieve them. If you are dealing with Angels and VCs, time is very limited so you need to raise additional capital for more aggressive marketing, hiring, etc. Clearly, this isn't what we are discussing. Organic growth is much less expensive but time to volume is much longer. Mass marketing is insanely expensive but grass roots Sandinista style marketing could work here.
  • Upgrades - yes, great idea. Caps, stepped attenuators, chrome faceplate, chassis, heatsinks, RCAs, binding posts, etc would allow someone to easily customize their unit with proven components.

@ Zach - I'd think breaking from the Phase Linear name would be necessary due to copyrights, etc. I'm not familiar so I ask, is there anyone of note that offers the same kit/DIY concept for solid state amps and preamps that the vacuum tube community has?

Trannies - My uncle is the outgoing president of Badger Magnetics. They specialize in low volume specialty transformers, inductors and other windings. I might be able to leverage my relationship with him to help out the cause (waive setup fees and minimum quantities). Maybe I'm kind of signing up to be the tranny guy. Oh wait, that didn't sound right...

@ Lee - I understand your position. However, I ask you to consider having a shopping cart PORTAL - a one stop place to get everything a person needs to scratch build whatever ends up coming out of these discussions. Then, individual orders would be passed through to every supplier in the chain automatically. I can't tell you how valuable one stop shopping is for someone like me who is still ascending the learning curve.
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I'd guess there will be a banner ad and or links from the forum right to the WO store front when it all gets up and going....
 
Just an idea, and I know some here will have strong feelings about this but in an event to get the name and product out there when the time comes I'd think getting a room and taking one of each model to an AKFest would get a lot of expossure. A lot of folks attend that show. Thats a lot of potential customers.....

Just a thought to get some wider exposure were folks can actually hear the amps.
 
RainDog911 said:
I ask you to consider having a shopping cart PORTAL - a one stop place to get everything a person needs to scratch build whatever ends up coming out of these discussions. Then, individual orders would be passed through to every supplier in the chain automatically. I can't tell you how valuable one stop shopping is for someone like me who is still ascending the learning curve.
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I bet Larry is silently chuckling, as I am right now :mrgreen: Seriously RD... what you described above is already "done", I just have it turned off and not available. That was the FIRST Phoenix site (an actual storefront site), before this forum existed. We had multiple sellers, each able to maintain their own inventory, and a shopping cart that would divvy up the total sale and have the customer go paypal each "merchant" individually and securely (actual CC processing was deemed too costly). Once payment was made, the site notified each merchant who to ship to and what/how much.

And then there were "territories" defined because we wanted to be able to sell the custom Phoenix tapes with multiple "distributors" handling multiple geographical areas... yeah, it was a whole lot of fun to get going for Larry and that's how I got involved with all this "schtuff" to begin with.:glasses8:
 
jbeckva said:
I bet Larry is silently chuckling, as I am right now :mrgreen: Seriously RD... what you described above is already "done", I just have it turned off and not available. That was the FIRST Phoenix site (an actual storefront site), before this forum existed. We had multiple sellers, each able to maintain their own inventory, and a shopping cart that would divvy up the total sale and have the customer go paypal each "merchant" individually and securely (actual CC processing was deemed too costly). Once payment was made, the site notified each merchant who to ship to and what/how much.

And then there were "territories" defined because we wanted to be able to sell the custom Phoenix tapes with multiple "distributors" handling multiple geographical areas... yeah, it was a whole lot of fun to get going for Larry and that's how I got involved with all this "schtuff" to begin with.:glasses8:
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And I for one am very pleased you did as you've been beyond helpful to me. ;)
 
Rex Everything said:
Just an idea, and I know some here will have strong feelings about this but in an event to get the name and product out there when the time comes I'd think getting a room and taking one of each model to an AKFest would get a lot of expossure. A lot of folks attend that show. Thats a lot of potential customers.....

Just a thought to get some wider exposure were folks can actually hear the amps.
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That I can help with this February meet. Drag the CV's and Blackie up there and drown out all extraneous noise LOL. I could put a big cardboard box over Blackie then for the length of the show, ask people what they think they are hearing. Last hour would be the unveiling... and hopefully a line of people wanting to know more about what magic their ear's are hearing. Blackie is a little ugly now so any way I can get a clean 400 faceplate for her to show off at the unveiling in time? If it's possible, I would bring her up there

EDIT: Joe is closer and probably has a pair to demo but the offer is there... he would be the better choice. Most people would rather buy (or take seriously) from a kindly looking gentleman then a dude with hair down to his ass
 
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Niche markets are fine till they get overwheming. Got tired of messed up orders cause I was farming out my loading. I'm asked all the time to start again. Not going to happen. I bought my stuff off of Mark so I guess I bought proprietary rights. LOL Nope One person running the show. There isn't enough valium to keep you from pulling your hair out. Just saw price.299.99 per mono.

Gotta shear and break make your own chassis. Then again a lot of tooling money. Can you pick up generic meters? Do you leave in the gains and volume pots? How high do you go with components. Chinese RCA, IEC, Speaker connectors? Lot to consider. You can do boutique. Give them a list and build to their wishes. Smaller market higher prices. Have a base then add upgrades. Lot to consider. Could pair up with a certain speaker manu. that way they do the advertising.
 
I never did get more than four Phoenix cassettes and the two traveling copies. At least one of them was a gift from Larry (the metal).

Still bummed out by that.
 
speakerman1 said:
Niche markets are fine till they get overwheming. Got tired of messed up orders cause I was farming out my loading. I'm asked all the time to start again. Not going to happen. I bought my stuff off of Mark so I guess I bought proprietary rights. LOL Nope One person running the show. There isn't enough valium to keep you from pulling your hair out. Just saw price.299.99 per mono.

Gotta shear and break make your own chassis. Then again a lot of tooling money. Can you pick up generic meters? Do you leave in the gains and volume pots? How high do you go with components. Chinese RCA, IEC, Speaker connectors? Lot to consider. You can do boutique. Give them a list and build to their wishes. Smaller market higher prices. Have a base then add upgrades. Lot to consider. Could pair up with a certain speaker manu. that way they do the advertising.
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My feeling is that there should always be an IEC on a new amp. I also think RCA's and binding posts should be quality also. They do not have to be top of the line but dependable and made to last. Binding posts should be 5-way imo.

If you are going to be selling something little things like that will impress people, bring them back as a repeat customer and compel them to tell their friends.
 
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speakerman1 said:
Niche markets are fine till they get overwheming. Got tired of messed up orders cause I was farming out my loading. I'm asked all the time to start again. Not going to happen. I bought my stuff off of Mark so I guess I bought proprietary rights. LOL Nope One person running the show. There isn't enough valium to keep you from pulling your hair out. Just saw price.299.99 per mono.

Gotta shear and break make your own chassis. Then again a lot of tooling money. Can you pick up generic meters? Do you leave in the gains and volume pots? How high do you go with components. Chinese RCA, IEC, Speaker connectors? Lot to consider. You can do boutique. Give them a list and build to their wishes. Smaller market higher prices. Have a base then add upgrades. Lot to consider. Could pair up with a certain speaker manu. that way they do the advertising.
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I have a 12ft metal break leftover from my flat roofing days (for capping). No way to shear though, those are expensive machines and you'd want at least a pneumatic one. Then there are the jigs for pre punching cutouts, holes etc... well beyond my resources. Seems to me there must be manufactures out there who do all that specifically but still a costly prospect as jigs would have to be made specifically for the application
 
Considering there is already a Phoenix Gold brand with a similar audio theme, using the Phoenix name would prove problematic.

Joe's White Oak brand is already established and viable should he ever wish to extend it.


Northwinds said:
Yeah, who wants those POS flame linears, sell them to us cheap!!!

Zach makes a good point, I rarely remember seeing PL equipment in home environments, most people could not afford them though the name was bandied around by people who talked knowingly about state of the art equipment back then... I saw the amps most often used for band PA's because they had the power and could take a decent beating before going up in "flames"

Phase Linear was always spoken of reverently even though Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui dominated the market. McIntosh was a niche market then just as it is now and then you had Apogee, Krell, Perreaux and a host of other companies out there with their own niche markets

In the end, it does not matter. There is this board and I am sure other people out there who love the equipment and bottomline, now you can have a flameproof WOPL that will stand on par or better with equipment that costs many times more. They sold a lot of amps so there is a lot out there just waiting to become more then they were

Things have not really changed, people still are blinded by brand loyalty and the others think that what's newest on the market is better. The rest buy what they can afford. Smart people will take an existing platform and make it better rather then throwing money away for the newest gadget that will likely end up obsolete within a year or two. The ears don't lie, Joe made a winner then add the guys that physically do the conversions and come up with other improvements that raise the bar higher. How well it's talked about favorably will dictate just how large a niche market it will eventually garner

WOPL could be the next Heathkit only significantly better. Heathkits were popular back in the day so I see no reason why WOPL's can't gain recognition once a few people who have a say in what's good and bad get a hold of one. With that recognition, PL units will go up somewhat in price but eventually, most existing ones will have been converted. Sooner or later, the supply will dry up (think about how many of these amps have been scrapped)

A Phoenix line is the best shot with a new chassis. All our WOPL's are just prototypes for something better coming. I sort of like that myself
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I believe after yesterday there will be a fatman and littleboy at the Vegas CES, along with a certain set of horns, in a room, that Steeve will provide.
 
Vertec Tools is located pretty close to me. They build Jeff Rowland and Dan D'Agostinos amps and might be able to manufacture face plates, chassis, silk screening, etc. I would be gald to contact them if the need was to arise. A friend of mine also owns a laser cutting shop- not sure if that helps, either. Be glad to yack at him, too. Oh yeah, I have an anodizer as well.
 
Don't fret the chassis or trannies , that's being taken care of, that's all I can say for now....
 
Nick Danger said:
Vertec Tools is located pretty close to me. They build Jeff Rowland and Dan D'Agostinos amps and might be able to manufacture face plates, chassis, silk screening, etc. I would be gald to contact them if the need was to arise. A friend of mine also owns a laser cutting shop- not sure if that helps, either. Be glad to yack at him, too. Oh yeah, I have an anodizer as well.
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Doug, ask that anodizer if he does Gold, or champagne........
 
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