Gentlemen---The future of Phoenix

[Zach C.]

I don't think it will completely die...

Also, as far as my family, kids, relatives and people I know, none of them really care that much to pursue higher level audio experiences that can be attained through better equipment...

There will likely be a demand for quality audio in the years to come, but a lot of things have changed and how and where money is being spent has changed too.

This is sad, but true, and has to be taken seriously with any business plan. The pie just keeps getting smaller.

What's possibly worse, is that an increasing number of audiophile/ upper-midfi types are being convinced that amps with SMPS, and digital amp sections are at least on par, if not superior to these "boat anchors" we're talking about. Digital amps can be made to sound OK, and may be fine for mobile applications, or pro-sound with enough EQ, but...

http://www.audioheuristics.org/markk_wp/?p=201

This is due to the output filter being outside the feedback loop, and can be corrected/ improved, but guys are settling for this kind of thing, and thinking it's "high end." Not good for our side. If it's an integrated product, this can also be accounted for, but who uses active speakers at home. Not many.

Still, I think an idea like Raindog's is doable...at least for a now, but I have a hard time seeing us convincing the "audio jewelry" crowd at large that these really are the shit. An old pro-sound hand told me long ago "that it's better to look good sounding than it is to sound good. Also, sad but true.

When they find out it's based off of old "flame linear*" tech, many will be done listening, no matter the improvements in reliability or sound.

* I am consistently amazed how much people enjoy saying this. The pro audio market beat the living shit out of these things in a manner in which they were never intended to be used, and they failed a lot. Huh, imagine that. I used my Celica as a boat once...It worked great at first, then it sank. What a piece of junk that car was. Duh. The prejudice is still very strong.

 

[premiumplus]

It's fine with me if people are turned off by the old "Flame Linear" talk...it keeps the prices more reasonable for amps to be converted to full WOPL glory. But your point is well taken. People really do listen with their eyes more often than with their ears. Sad really.

 

[Northwinds]

Yeah, who wants those POS flame linears, sell them to us cheap!!!

Zach makes a good point, I rarely remember seeing PL equipment in home environments, most people could not afford them though the name was bandied around by people who talked knowingly about state of the art equipment back then... I saw the amps most often used for band PA's because they had the power and could take a decent beating before going up in "flames"

Phase Linear was always spoken of reverently even though Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui dominated the market. McIntosh was a niche market then just as it is now and then you had Apogee, Krell, Perreaux and a host of other companies out there with their own niche markets

In the end, it does not matter. There is this board and I am sure other people out there who love the equipment and bottomline, now you can have a flameproof WOPL that will stand on par or better with equipment that costs many times more. They sold a lot of amps so there is a lot out there just waiting to become more then they were

Things have not really changed, people still are blinded by brand loyalty and the others think that what's newest on the market is better. The rest buy what they can afford. Smart people will take an existing platform and make it better rather then throwing money away for the newest gadget that will likely end up obsolete within a year or two. The ears don't lie, Joe made a winner then add the guys that physically do the conversions and come up with other improvements that raise the bar higher. How well it's talked about favorably will dictate just how large a niche market it will eventually garner

WOPL could be the next Heathkit only significantly better. Heathkits were popular back in the day so I see no reason why WOPL's can't gain recognition once a few people who have a say in what's good and bad get a hold of one. With that recognition, PL units will go up somewhat in price but eventually, most existing ones will have been converted. Sooner or later, the supply will dry up (think about how many of these amps have been scrapped)

A Phoenix line is the best shot with a new chassis. All our WOPL's are just prototypes for something better coming. I sort of like that myself

 

[Zach C.]

It's fine with me if people are turned off by the old "Flame Linear" talk...it keeps the prices more reasonable for amps to be converted to full WOPL glory. But your point is well taken. People really do listen with their eyes more often than with their ears. Sad really.

I feel you on the price thing, but if "we" intend to sell these monsters...that's a big hurdle in itself.

I think folks just enjoy that sense of smug superiority in saying that phrase...just cause they heard it somewhere...Not sure I'll ever understand that mindset.

Be smug if you need to, but be smug about your accomplishments, not tearing someone else down. Sad.

 

[Zach C.]

WOPL could be the next Heathkit only significantly better. Heathkits were popular back in the day so I see no reason why WOPL's can't gain recognition once a few people who have a say in what's good and bad get a hold of one. With that recognition, PL units will go up somewhat in price but eventually, most existing ones will have been converted. Sooner or later, the supply will dry up (think about how many of these amps have been scrapped)

A Phoenix line is the best shot with a new chassis. All our WOPL's are just prototypes for something better coming. I sort of like that myself

Me too, but I think the real question here is whether the idea will generate two dimes to rub together, or just remain a hobby thing for those involved. I for one, can't spend time assembling an amp for someone else if there's not some profit in it. It's fun to be sure, but I just don't have that kind of free time. If there's a profit to be made, it gets a lot easier to justify to the little lady why I'm spending countless nights soldering up boards, and building amps that won't stay in my home. But, maybe assembled units isn't where it's at. ???

It's good to keep the forum going, but what else? I seriously doubt that Joe or Don are making much on what they produce for us. A bit, I'm sure, but... I priced out building Don's board from mouser, and even at the reasonable price of $29 for the bare board it was almost no cost savings over fully assembled board. Quantity discounts add up, but...

 

[RainDog911]

Why can't assembly labor be an optional line item in a shopping cart?

Think of this - A person buys a complete WOPL 1K kit and selects an authorized technician to do the work. Behind the scenes, a pool of pre-qualified and trained techs opt-in for the job (born from this community). This way, people take on as much of the work as they would like as their time and interest allow. Parts ship from independent suppliers to the assembly shop then the completed amp ships to the end user.

Only build on demand and low inventory (low investment, lower risk) for all the component suppliers to start.

I'm an audio DIYer. Caviar tastes on a Friday night fish fry budget (Wisconsin reference...) and with enough background in electronics to be two ticks above dangerous enables my pursuit. There are a lot of cottage industries supporting this small, but not insignificant segment of the audiophile world. It seems to me to be mainly in the vacuum tube subset, but I can easily see an extension into high power solid state equipment.

I intend on building Trancedent's grounded grid preamp as my next project, eventually building Bob Latino's Dynaco inspired 125 watt KT120 monoblocks and big ass 3-way speakers kits from Madisound. The common thread to all of these companies is a GOOD ON-LINE COMMUNITY TO SUPPORT THE PROJECTS. Sound familiar?

 

[speakerman1]

You have to at least do 100% mark up. I sold the 1st 700B modded. I think it was 1st. Maybe I was wrong. I wanted a USA built rack. Some people just don't want that much iron in a rack. I'm not running VOTTs. I'll bet I can sell the X amps faster than the WOPLs. There are new X amps out there. I know the designer. He is funny he hates digital; but builds some nice things. I have even got him to start ripping.
1) Demand
2) start up
3) inventory
4) labor
5) cost effective
6) reviews
7) up grades
8) Niche ( market share) You may want Bob to do a review. That would be a selling point.
9) Warranty (cost)
10) to get a reduce in price your going to have to order a pretty good amount of stock. No BGs you can't get the stock. How many chassis will have to be made to get a good price.
11) Objective

Just some questions. Any answers.

 

[Zach C.]

Why can't assembly labor be an optional line item in a shopping cart?

Think of this - A person buys a complete WOPL 1K kit and selects an authorized technician to do the work. Behind the scenes, a pool of pre-qualified and trained techs opt-in for the job (born from this community). This way, people take on as much of the work as they would like as their time and interest allow. Parts ship from independent suppliers to the assembly shop then the completed amp ships to the end user.

Only build on demand and low inventory (low investment, lower risk) for all the component suppliers to start.

We are in complete agreement- except...

Tube gear has a cache (deserved or not) that gets folks to pry their wallets (wide) open, and PLWO 1000 is just another "big amp that lacks finesse, and didn't those catch FIRE a lot?"

We know better. I just wonder how to market this- how to change that prejudice. The "first watt" may be the most important, but the rest matters quite a bit, too. "Just another bigass class AB" might be a hard sell to a large enough audience to make full production practical. Take a look at the comments over at AK and you'll see what I mean. "Are PL amps any good?" brings a deluge of negative comments. Perhaps breaking from that name entirely would be better???

It's a very interesting idea, and as close as these guys are already, I think it should be tried.

I'm just asking questions to start the creative juices flowing- like the ones displayed in your posts.

 

[Zach C.]

...
10)...How many chassis will have to be made to get a good price...

Also, trannies aren't going to be cheap no matter how you slice it. Copper is just expensive.

 

[laatsch55]

Phoenix will not sell anything. That's up to the designers, the forum will not be caught up in that, BUT!!!!!! If you need someplace to go for advice and guidance on ge3tting your ground up WOPL running........THIS is the place...Joe's counting on that. He doesn't have time for the customer service gig on a much wider scale. He's as much a stickler on that as anything else. So PAC becomes the go to place for WOPL factory endorsed advice. Could be a whole lot worse things to be.


And Larrt, we're gonna see how those X-Amps sell. Bought got enough money to do those too 2800 and we're good to go.u

 

[laatsch55]

Keep it going guys, I'm sure Joe could use some marketing Ideas.

 

[Zach C.]

Phoenix will not sell anything. That's up to the designers, the forum will not be caught up in that...

And Larrt, we're gonna see how those X-Amps sell. Bought got enough money to do those too 2800 and we're good to go.u

In that case, I guess I'm confused about what you had in mind at the beginning of this thread.

X-amps? Brings up high output alternators in google.

You sentence got a little mangled there, too. What?

 

[Northwinds]

Take a look at the comments over at AK and you'll see what I mean. "Are PL amps any good?" brings a deluge of negative comments. Perhaps breaking from that name entirely would be better???

I get disgusted when I read those threads, not all PL's went up in flames but enough did that word got around and that's all it is, gossip that originated from some unfortunate instances. Right now, it's an advantage because Joe already has a classy looking platform to mod and develop but I agree, eventually a departure from the PL name will be required. Those lucky enough to own original early WOPL's will have something special that few other people will never get to enjoy simply because they did not audition one and only rely on old gossip

They will someday be legendary, just you watch. All it takes is one favorable review from somebody who others look to to make their decisions, there is a lot of sheep out there with fat wallets willing to follow the next trend only this time, they really are getting bang for the buck

 

[laatsch55]

You guys are thinking seriously about the success of these amps. Ya wouldn't do that if ya didn't love the damn things. People don't revel in criticism and derision for the fun ofit. BUT!!!!!!! I have yet to have anyone send one back saying this is nothing like you told me it was going to be. They all exceeded their expectations, even Steve's and he was a tough nut to crack, mainly because of his exposure to A LOT of high end stuff.

 

[BubbaH]

I get disgusted when I read those threads, not all PL's went up in flames but enough did that word got around and that's all it is, gossip that originated from some unfortunate instances. Those lucky enough to own original early WOPL's will have something special that few other people will never get to enjoy simply because they did not audition one and only rely on old gossip

Try being a vintage Bose guy....

 

[Northwinds]

You guys are thinking seriously about the success of these amps. Ya wouldn't do that if ya didn't love the damn things. People don't revel in criticism and derision for the fun ofit. BUT!!!!!!! I have yet to have anyone send one back saying this is nothing like you told me it was going to be. They all exceeded their expectations, even Steve's and he was a tough nut to crack, mainly because of his exposure to A LOT of high end stuff.

Your absolutely right Lee. IMO my little 400 is better then my long gone high dollar Mark Levinson 333. That comparison does not come lightly, it is because I remember how the Levinson sounded and how the WOPL400 just KILLS it, even being just a quasi and not the full comp banana (soon one will be gracing my system though thanks to Jer)

 

[laatsch55]

The Phoenix Phund will be for group buys, etc.

X-Amps were the remnants of what remained from AV-123's stock. They had a pitiful power supply, Joe redesigned that and now all I have to do is oder2800 in parts and install them in the 49 x-ers that are left. With Jer's and Larrts help. They were the original partners on that deal.

 

[laatsch55]

Try being a vintage Bose guy....

Your yoke is much harder to bear....

 

[Northwinds]

Lee, could you tell us a little more about what these X amps are? I never heard a reference of them until this morning. Specific details? Maybe projected retail cost?

 

[laatsch55]

Zach, selling something means having exposure in this litiginous world we live in today. Joe has been aware of that and dealing with that from the beginning and I see no reason to mess with that. I'm perfectly comfortable being the place where folks come for help.