Little Vinyl Rant

Zach C.

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#81
I have noticed the K's are very prone to standing waves....and you guys just thought I was a slob!! It's standing wave breakup treatment!!
Relative to the dimensions of the room, at low frequencies, room modes dominate- wave acoustics. And, above the transition zone, diffusion/ diffraction dominates- ray acoustics. Acoustically small objects are in effect “invisible†to low frequency sounds. So, while tons of random crap in a room will help in smoothing out the diffuse sound field, these do nothing for standing waves, which are extremely difficult do get rid of in domestic environments.

Sorry Lee, you’re just a slob. :)

To your point about the K-horns being prone to standing waves, this is certainly true, since they are corner loaded. This is a compromise used to increase the effective mouth area of the low frequency horn, extending bass response, but being in the corner excites all room modes maximally. Since the speakers are locked into the corner, the only effective tool you have to minimize the effect of these maximally excited modes is to vary listener position for flattest overall SPL.

Since I find dynamics to be very important to musical enjoyment, I think that this can be a reasonable compromise providing that a “flat enough†response can be had at some listening position. Outside this position though- watch out! Those bass modes will bowl you over in some places and be unsatisfyingly absent in others. High voltage sensitivity is something I strive for in a speaker, and the K-horns have that in spades. I have not had a chance to hear these, but I’d love to.

To the O.P.

The 901’s are an interesting design. They’re meant to be placed near (but not against) the rear and side walls to augment bass response. This will tend to emphasize room modes as I mentioned in my response to Lee above. Since they are locked in the vertical direction by the provided stands (and listener height) you should play around with placement in the other two directions for the most even bass response at the listening position as well as experimenting with location of the listening position. This is a balancing act wherein you shoot for the best compromise between lowest bass extension, overall SPL evenness, and stereo image due to separation distance. I tend to switch back and forth between static frequency response and Pink noise RTA to try to get a better picture of perceived sound. You can do this with your ears and no mic, but without a reference, it gets tricky, since you will end up with many different responses and it’s difficult to know which is “bestâ€. Add in the tone controls and… Lots of playing around will get you there though, and this can be a fun and instructive exercise if you understand what is happening with the different placements.

They also have the bulk of their drivers reflecting off the rear and side walls directly- as opposed to reaching your ear, then the wall behind you, then the wall behind the speaker. This will emphasize reflection over the first arrival sounds- which the brain naturally emphasizes. The effect of which, is to have less “pinpoint imaging.†But, as long as these reflections arrive within 50mS of the direct sound (Haas effect), the brain will integrate the reflections with the direct sound and perceive them as the direct sound.

Whether these are good compromises depends on (at least) Room size, available listening positions, musical type and listener preference. For example, orchestral music would tend to be enhanced by spaciousness while chamber music would benefit from pinpoint imaging.

You may know all of this- I don't know. But, some of us likely don't, and I hope this helps them, since it applies to all speakers/ rooms.

Zach

p.s. As always, I'm open to correction/ modification.
 

speakerman1

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#82
Relative to the dimensions of the room, at low frequencies, room modes dominate- wave acoustics. And, above the transition zone, diffusion/ diffraction dominates- ray acoustics. Acoustically small objects are in effect “invisible†to low frequency sounds. So, while tons of random crap in a room will help in smoothing out the diffuse sound field, these do nothing for standing waves, which are extremely difficult do get rid of in domestic environments.

Sorry Lee, you’re just a slob. :)

To your point about the K-horns being prone to standing waves, this is certainly true, since they are corner loaded. This is a compromise used to increase the effective mouth area of the low frequency horn, extending bass response, but being in the corner excites all room modes maximally. Since the speakers are locked into the corner, the only effective tool you have to minimize the effect of these maximally excited modes is to vary listener position for flattest overall SPL.

Since I find dynamics to be very important to musical enjoyment, I think that this can be a reasonable compromise providing that a “flat enough†response can be had at some listening position. Outside this position though- watch out! Those bass modes will bowl you over in some places and be unsatisfyingly absent in others. High voltage sensitivity is something I strive for in a speaker, and the K-horns have that in spades. I have not had a chance to hear these, but I’d love to.

To the O.P.

The 901’s are an interesting design. They’re meant to be placed near (but not against) the rear and side walls to augment bass response. This will tend to emphasize room modes as I mentioned in my response to Lee above. Since they are locked in the vertical direction by the provided stands (and listener height) you should play around with placement in the other two directions for the most even bass response at the listening position as well as experimenting with location of the listening position. This is a balancing act wherein you shoot for the best compromise between lowest bass extension, overall SPL evenness, and stereo image due to separation distance. I tend to switch back and forth between static frequency response and Pink noise RTA to try to get a better picture of perceived sound. You can do this with your ears and no mic, but without a reference, it gets tricky, since you will end up with many different responses and it’s difficult to know which is “bestâ€. Add in the tone controls and… Lots of playing around will get you there though, and this can be a fun and instructive exercise if you understand what is happening with the different placements.

They also have the bulk of their drivers reflecting off the rear and side walls directly- as opposed to reaching your ear, then the wall behind you, then the wall behind the speaker. This will emphasize reflection over the first arrival sounds- which the brain naturally emphasizes. The effect of which, is to have less “pinpoint imaging.†But, as long as these reflections arrive within 50mS of the direct sound (Haas effect), the brain will integrate the reflections with the direct sound and perceive them as the direct sound.

Whether these are good compromises depends on (at least) Room size, available listening positions, musical type and listener preference. For example, orchestral music would tend to be enhanced by spaciousness while chamber music would benefit from pinpoint imaging.

You may know all of this- I don't know. But, some of us likely don't, and I hope this helps them, since it applies to all speakers/ rooms.

Zach

p.s. As always, I'm open to correction/ modification.
What do you mean by dynamics?
 

Northwinds

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#83
What do you mean by dynamics?
I would imagine he is referring to how the music jumps out of the speakers. Like when I reference a rimshot that hits you in the face. That impact is what makes music come alive. You don't get that with cheap systems as everything sounds flat and mushy. You need power and headroom and importantly, amps and speakers that are fast enough reacting to give that effect. I love the WOPL's just for this reason. Dynamics to me mean auditory impact, the crash of a cymbal is really a crash LOL
 
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BubbaH

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#84
Either we've turned this discussion to a room treatment/speaker thread, or, We've lost sight of its actual intent. I dont think 901 placement and room treatments will be the greater factor's with the vinyl rant.

My suggestion is, and this goes for pretty much anything. If something doesnt jive well...take a break from it... come back with a clear and open mind once the feeling has passed. Meaning the vinyl sound. If you still dont think its for you, move along to something else.

If were talking speakers... the 901's sound best in the air. You can move them around all you want on stands and they still sound muddy(imo). Un-obstructed suspension of the speaker system will yield the best results as far as i'm concerned.
 

speakerman1

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#85
I was just wondering. To me dynamic is lively but equal. So I was wondering if he meant a thumping bass or just what he meant. I want to hear the cow bell; but not in my face. We all have differing views. So I just wondered.
 

Zach C.

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#86
I would imagine he is referring to how the music jumps out of the speakers. Like when I reference a rimshot that hits you in the face. That impact is what makes music come alive. You don't get that with cheap systems as everything sounds flat and mushy. You need power and headroom and importantly, amps and speakers that are fast enough reacting to give that effect. I love the WOPL's just for this reason. Dynamics to me mean auditory impact, the crash of a cymbal is really a crash LOL
Yes, this is what I meant by "dynamics." It is especially noticeable (in rock music) with well recorded drums as Northwinds mentioned, but it's there with all instruments- the attack of a plucked bass string, etc. Lovers of classical music will experience this as the ability to reproduce orchestral crescendos with authority and easy. High voltage sensitivity speakers (with high power handling), big ass amps, and well recorded (not compressed to death) music are what you need for this.

It's the difference between the softest and loudest sounds on a recording.

A fantastic example of this is The Best of Kodo.
 

Northwinds

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#87
Yes, this is what I meant by "dynamics." It is especially noticeable (in rock music) with well recorded drums as Northwinds mentioned, but it's there with all instruments- the attack of a plucked bass string, etc. Lovers of classical music will experience this as the ability to reproduce orchestral crescendos with authority and easy. High voltage sensitivity speakers (with high power handling), big ass amps, and well recorded (not compressed to death) music are what you need for this.

It's the difference between the softest and loudest sounds on a recording.

A fantastic example of this is The Best of Kodo.

Another great example is Baroque Organ music. You cannot believe how your house shakes with a huge pipe organ in the minor keys through a high performance system
 

Zach C.

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#88
Either we've turned this discussion to a room treatment/speaker thread, or, We've lost sight of its actual intent. I dont think 901 placement and room treatments will be the greater factor's with the vinyl rant.

My suggestion is, and this goes for pretty much anything. If something doesnt jive well...take a break from it... come back with a clear and open mind once the feeling has passed. Meaning the vinyl sound. If you still dont think its for you, move along to something else.

If were talking speakers... the 901's sound best in the air. You can move them around all you want on stands and they still sound muddy(imo). Un-obstructed suspension of the speaker system will yield the best results as far as i'm concerned.
You're right, and that's my fault. I started out saying to the O.P that he should consider that other factors than just LP-vs-CD might be coloring his perception of the source.

Then, I wondered off into another area, since it was related to some of what I was talking about after the O.P. stated that he had noticed an improvement in vinyl playback after making some adjustments to the 901 tone controls. At least, I think that's what he meant.

You are certainly right that the flattest overall response should be possible by varying the height of the speaker (901's included, but not exclusively, as this applies to all) , but for me, having the speaker substantially above the listening position is pretty distracting, but fine for casual listening. (The speakers in my office are up on top of high book shelves, but when I sit down with a glass of scotch on the couch, I want the musicians right in front of me when I close my eyes.)

Also, with all real world drivers, this places the listener off axis with the tweeter, leaving a high frequency roll-off unless the speaker is also tilted. And it should be, but that's not the way the Bose set up manual shows it. Since the 901 uses 4" (roughly?- I forget) drivers, this effect will be even more pronounced in those particular speaker than it would be with a dome tweeter. IOW, if you fly them, be sure to point the direct radiating driver straight into your ear hole.

While I have heard 901's (they were flown) I haven't "played" with them myself, so all of this is theoretical, but the physics should apply to a large extent with the particulars varying with room, etc. I wouldn't begin to characteristic them as bad, just different.

I have "played" with Bose 301, 501, and 601's in real rooms- my own and the rooms of the friends I gifted them to, so I am familiar with the effects of the general concepts upon which the 901's are built.
 

Zach C.

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#89
I was just wondering. To me dynamic is lively but equal. So I was wondering if he meant a thumping bass or just what he meant. I want to hear the cow bell; but not in my face. We all have differing views. So I just wondered.
Real drums and trumpets are LOUD, so I like to be able to reproduce that, but not all of the time!

Ow, my ears.
 
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BubbaH

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#90
301's 501's and 601's are quite different beasts than 901's although, they do share some of the same principles.

I think if I was using 901's alone some of what you say would be true. Which is why I opt for the 4 channel setup.

Old pic but you get the idea.

 

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#91
Real drums and trumpets are F'n loud, so I like to be able to reproduce that, but not all of the time!

Ow, my ears.
Man, you should check out some of Miles Davis' hornblasts with a WOPL, scared the shit out of my wife when she walked by the speakers LOL

I see a reference to 501's below, I use a set in the garage and they are probably my 2nd favorite Bose speaker system behind the legendary 10.2 towers
 

Zach C.

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#92
Man, you should check out some of Miles Davis' hornblasts with a WOPL, scared the shit out of my wife when she walked by the speakers LOL

I see a reference to 501's below, I use a set in the garage and they are probably my 2nd favorite Bose speaker system behind the legendary 10.2 towers
That's awesome.

I like most of Davis's stuff. I initially hated Bitches Brew, but after a few listens, my NM first pressing vinyl copy is now one of my most cherished pieces.

At some point (when I stop babbling on forums?) I'll install the already stuffed driver board I have into my 700B and find out, but for now, I'm using line arrays driven off fairly modest 100W into 8R Outlaw amp channels- they're 6R speakers. It'll play pretty darned loud already. I can't imagine what Lee's set up is like with K-horns and WOPL. Good lord.

I could have been well on the way to installing that board in the time I've spent just this morning, but there's something else on the bench...always.

Soon.
 

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#94
That's awesome.

I like most of Davis's stuff. I initially hated Bitches Brew, but after a few listens, my NM first pressing vinyl copy is now one of my most cherished pieces

Bitches Brew is definitely an aquired listen. Initially I loved it because a lot of jazz sounds the same to me. Bitches Brew is unique, avant garde jazz to the extreme (at the time). I HIGHLY recommend getting the deluxe CD set of Bitches Brew the Complete Sessions

Another fun CD to check out is ZZ Tops Greatest Hits, some of the dynamics are just INSANE
 

Zach C.

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#95
Bitches Brew is definitely an aquired listen. Initially I loved it because a lot of jazz sounds the same to me. Bitches Brew is unique, avant garde jazz to the extreme (at the time). I HIGHLY recommend getting the deluxe CD set of Bitches Brew the Complete Sessions

Another fun CD to check out is ZZ Tops Greatest Hits, some of the dynamics are just INSANE
My CD copy of BB is just a standard Columbia re-release- no extras. Didn't know such a thing existed. I'll try to remember to check it out.

I Love me some old ZZ top. I think Tres Hombres is my favorite. The later stuff...less so, but I still don't change the channel on the radio when it comes on. :)
 

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#96
Gentlemen, off topic has yielded some gems in this forum. If you have to wait or try and remember what crossed your mind in a thread you didn't feel it was ok to post in, it'd be a shame to lose a piece of tactical levity, or brilliant insight. I will now try to generalize a mode of behavior for which we have blessedly not had to do, nor do we have to now, IF A MAJORITY OF THE POSTERS HERE FEEL OFF_TOPIC IS TABOO< LET IT BE KNOWN HERE_______


I will let this post kinda stew here and then repost it as a separate thread. Been awhile since we discussed it. The official, unofficial stand was if the OP didsn't like the way things were going he could let that be known and the unobjectionable behavior would cease......or not depending on whether the offending posters thought he was serious......


A perfect example is this thread, Joe has always been a good sport, and the speaker placement/dynamics discussion is topnotch. We can prune and move all relevant speaker posts to a new thread but it takes the ebb and flow out of the discussions....what do you guys think???

Your slobbish admin----Lee---- (Zach-your priceless-don't stop)
 

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#97
I can't imagine what Lee's set up is like with K-horns and WOPL. Good lord.




Zach.....it is simply F(*&^%$ amazing. From background levels to Mach 8, I have not heard anything like em to date. That may change some day, but not so yet.
 

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#98
301's 501's and 601's are quite different beasts than 901's although, they do share some of the same principles.

I think if I was using 901's alone some of what you say would be true. Which is why I opt for the 4 channel setup.

Old pic but you get the idea.


Bubba, that pic there mimics my setup in 1975. Except for the groundwellers they were a Magnavox box full of 15" woof and 12" horn. All 4 being pushed by a healthy Spec 2. Pretty darn good and portable as hell as I was moving all over the state chasing the oil boom.
 

BubbaH

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#99
Gentlemen, off topic has yielded some gems in this forum. If you have to wait or try and remember what crossed your mind in a thread you didn't feel it was ok to post in, it'd be a shame to lose a piece of tactical levity, or brilliant insight. I will now try to generalize a mode of behavior for which we have blessedly not had to do, nor do we have to now, IF A MAJORITY OF THE POSTERS HERE FEEL OFF_TOPIC IS TABOO< LET IT BE KNOWN HERE_______


I will let this post kinda stew here and then repost it as a separate thread. Been awhile since we discussed it. The official, unofficial stand was if the OP didsn't like the way things were going he could let that be known and the unobjectionable behavior would cease......or not depending on whether the offending posters thought he was serious......


A perfect example is this thread, Joe has always been a good sport, and the speaker placement/dynamics discussion is topnotch. We can prune and move all relevant speaker posts to a new thread but it takes the ebb and flow out of the discussions....what do you guys think???

Your slobbish admin----Lee---- (Zach-your priceless-don't stop)
Im cool with stuff going O/T. Doesnt bother me. I just think that in light of the original discussion we had strayed a ways off and losing sight of what the problem might have actually been. Again... didnt bother me, I just wanted to point out that the speakers and their placement/room treatments werent going to impact his
feelings on vinyl all that much. Which is why I posted my thought about distance from something you dont feel is right to you. Youll then notice i chose to go back O/T bringing it to the speaker discussion again. :mrgreen:

I do like the fact taht its allowed here though. Most discussions seem to go off topic in many places... pruning them seems too uptight.
 

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OK, excellent. And I'm not against a true single point thread, just hate to hobble the discussion in any way, but........I'm just like that.




within 50mS of the direct sound (Haas effect), Zach, I had read somewhere that , that effect started at 15ms and ended about 50ms. Not being picky I just remember a range, not a specific number.
 
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