Little Vinyl Rant

[Pure_Brew]

Currently using:

Sota Moonbeam II Turntable
Sutherland PH3D Phono Preamp
Shure M97xe w/JICO SAS

In the past : used various pro-ject & technics turntables
AT440mla, OM5, oyster, a few Shure's, ortophon Red
various preamps, rcvr phono stages, Bellari etc

To this day, my phone streaming music still sounds better. Warmer, fuller, more transparent.
I honestly think I could be done trying to make vinyl sound better. I've tossed $$$ at it, tried to refine the setup over and over. Once in a while something sounds decent. But not enough.

Biggest accomplishment was overcoming inner groove distortion. I've managed a very low noise setup, especially with the sutherland.

However, I can never seem to get a turntable that does well with speed stability. The old technics that had controls, were also not solid players & the tonearms were cheap. I suppose a big issue would be not having a fully adjustable tonearm for VTA.

But really. WTF is it going to take to get a stable turntable, with accurate speed & a fully adjustable tonearm - NEW?!? Perhaps I should have just gone for an SL-1200 in the first place.

 

[Elite-ist]

Most of my enjoyment comes from listening to vinyl records, so it would be perturbing to not be where I was happy with playing records in a pleasing fashion without being thrown off the experience because of what you describe, Joe. I know you have a discerning ear, and the first mix tape you recorded for me, albeit with a totally different phono set-up, didn't exhibit problems I could hear made from LP to cassette. So, are you saying you are going backwards in terms of quality from where you were back here? http://forums.phxaudiotape.com/showthread.php/1961-Your-Latest-Mix?p=34906&viewfull=1#post34906

Nando.

 

[speakerman1]

Find a table you like build the plinth you want and a tone arm you would like. If you build it it will come.

 

[Lazarus Short]

#1 It may be time for idler drive, or non-cogging direct drive (Hitachi).

#2 It may be time to try a moving-coil cart, if you haven't yet.

#3 It may be time to play with resistive & capacitive loading on your cart(s).

BTW, I've been enjoying (until packed) the crap out of my cheap, no, make that INEXPENSIVE, Sony direct-drive, linear-tracker, with an AT T4P cart, feeding the stock phono section of my Arcam amp. None of it is exotic, and much is not new. YMMV.

 

[Rex Everything]

Have you tried a better cart with the set up? I know that is supposed to be a nice budget cart but I was curious if you've tried better with this rig.

Looks like a $1K phono pre, a $750 table and a $150 cart. Maybe stepping it up would help out?

 

[orange]

Believe I spent all of $5 on my Pioneer PL-610 and a bit more fixing it (a BIT) but hell, I'm happy and I don't have a $1K pre or whatever. Been doing this for 32 years.

 

[Dazen1]

Currently using:

Sota Moonbeam II Turntable
Sutherland PH3D Phono Preamp
Shure M97xe w/JICO SAS

In the past : used various pro-ject & technics turntables
AT440mla, OM5, oyster, a few Shure's, ortophon Red
various preamps, rcvr phono stages, Bellari etc

To this day, my phone streaming music still sounds better. Warmer, fuller, more transparent.
I honestly think I could be done trying to make vinyl sound better. I've tossed $$$ at it, tried to refine the setup over and over. Once in a while something sounds decent. But not enough.

Biggest accomplishment was overcoming inner groove distortion. I've managed a very low noise setup, especially with the sutherland.

However, I can never seem to get a turntable that does well with speed stability. The old technics that had controls, were also not solid players & the tonearms were cheap. I suppose a big issue would be not having a fully adjustable tonearm for VTA.

But really. WTF is it going to take to get a stable turntable, with accurate speed & a fully adjustable tonearm - NEW?!? Perhaps I should have just gone for an SL-1200 in the first place.

Good for you.

It would appear that you are using your ears rather than your heart when it comes to the actual listening. In my opinion, there is way too much romanticisation when it comes to vinyl.

The truth, is that you need plenty of patience (and money) to make records really sing. If you are getting pleasing results by streaming music from your phone - why not stick with that?

I gave up on vinyl several years ago. Too many variables to consider for my liking - and I don't miss it.

 

[nobody]

I love vinyl, but partly it is the ritual. Still, I do like the sound of vinyl and prefer it to digital. I'm willing to say it may be as much an acquired thing from growing up listening to records and falling in love with music played on vinyl as anything else.

I just think vinyl just sounds different, not necessarily "better" to everyone. There's nothing wrong with personally preferring digital. You like what you like. So while I like vinyl, I don't at all think it is mandatory for everyone or that everyone should necessarily prefer the sound. If you don't like it, you probably should just leave it alone and go with digital. No reason to listen to something you don't enjoy as much just because someone else prefers it. You've obviously poured enough time and money into vinyl that if you really did like it better, you'd know by now.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Thanks I loved all the responses. Nando, that was mostly a digital mix. I can always dig a few recording out that sound decent. I don't think I've gone backwards. If anything, improvements (except for speed accuracy) have been made along the way.

However, I have yet to create a playback setup, where I could reel someone in and demonstrate that vinyl is better. And to be clear, I'm not talking about pops clicks or surface noise. I'm not too concerned there.

Sure, I can find at least one bad transfer to CD, where I actually like the original vinyl better. But should one need to work so hard? Hmmm.

The reason I went down this path to begin with was for better sound. I find many things in audio fatiguing over time, so there I went, tubes, soft domes, paper cones, vinyl and even some tape experimentation. While I certainly found a way to soften the blow, I did not make my way to truly higher fidelity. Even still, digital playback through that system sounded better.

Its funny, like oranges comment, it made me think of situations, like walking into a used record store, where some beat up old rack system playing a record was doing a fine job! Or like when I jump into the car and crank up some old tune and just enjoy it!

Maybe there is something to be said about folks who build these two channel "shrines" and never stop changing them. It's like an act where you force yourself to look at the sun and bitch when it hurts. Instead of enjoying the warmth and beauty that it brings.

 

[Northwinds]

crank up some old tune and just enjoy it!

Instead of enjoying the warmth and beauty that it brings.

This, in the end, there is no brown sound

 

[laatsch55]

Very profound Joe...

 

[Northwinds]

I love vinyl, but partly it is the ritual. Still, I do like the sound of vinyl and prefer it to digital. I'm willing to say it may be as much an acquired thing from growing up listening to records and falling in love with music played on vinyl as anything else.

I just think vinyl just sounds different, not necessarily "better" to everyone. There's nothing wrong with personally preferring digital. You like what you like. So while I like vinyl, I don't at all think it is mandatory for everyone or that everyone should necessarily prefer the sound. If you don't like it, you probably should just leave it alone and go with digital. No reason to listen to something you don't enjoy as much just because someone else prefers it. You've obviously poured enough time and money into vinyl that if you really did like it better, you'd know by now.

Well said, that's pretty much how I feel. I grew up saving my allowance and doing whatever other jobs for family and neighbors so I could buy records LOL

 

[Zach C.]

I don't worry about the whole vinyl-vs-digital thing- never understood the whole hubbub.

To me, it's kinda like the whole Democrat-vs-Republican thing. Guess what? In the end, they both suck. Compared to real, live, acoustic music, ALL recordings and systems fall way short. Compared to real democracy and liberty, ALL (both) parties who constantly attempt to abridge my freedoms by playing half of the country against the other half suck. Still, it's what we've got to work with, so just make the best of it, and try to enjoy life, cause we ain't here very long.

I never got rid of my old records when CD's came out, and regularly pick up new (used) records. Much of it, I wouldn't have had a chance to listen to, since it was never re-released and/ or I wouldn't have bought because I refuse to pay $18 for a 40 year old recording, the artists of which are dead when CD's are dirt cheap to produce. I'm just not doing it.

I must be cranky tonight. Sorry.

Zach

 

[laatsch55]

Zack, I was about to ask how you really felt about it!!

 

[Pure_Brew]

When I was young there were records all around me but I didn't really have much of anything of my own to play any on. The first thing I remember having of my own to play music on was a boombox & cassettes in the early 80's. I had a little "record envy" since my father and older brother had records & something decent to play them on.

Even then the whole family started moving to cassettes. Small, easy to use, good sound & you could even use them in the car! I remember when we bought our dad a Nakamichi BX100 which put right on top of his big mahogany cabinet stereo. Lovely. It really was back then.

I'm digressing. But nostalgia does play a role in the experience for me. Having vinyl in hand, the rituals associated etc. I've looked back a lot. Sometime I think I've just been trying to recreate my dad's old cabinet stereo. Big booming bass, open back spaciousness. Tubes. Vinyl.

When I learned about the possibilities of "HiFi", working and selling audio, I got hooked. Like some of you I've had an awful lot of gear.

Wow, I'm sick, literally. Was shivering all night. Second night in a row!

Anyway... Previous posts point out potential improvements in my vinyl set up. Carts, arms, plinths, different motor schemes etc. No doubt I can improve this. But I think its time to blow the whistle on the expenditure, and start taking a realistic look at what's going on here.

 

[VintageShadow]

But nostalgia does play a role in the experience for me. Having vinyl in hand, the rituals associated etc.

That plays a big role for me too, so i can't imagine myself listening the Nutcracker during the Christmas evening just through a digital file or from CD. NOOO! I'll play my Deutsche gramophon mono pressing of it with my Lenco turntable,, just looking how that old turntable squeeze so nice that even older record IT'S JUST PRICELESS!

 

[speakerman1]

When I was young there were records all around me but I didn't really have much of anything of my own to play any on. The first thing I remember having of my own to play music on was a boombox & cassettes in the early 80's. I had a little "record envy" since my father and older brother had records & something decent to play them on.

Even then the whole family started moving to cassettes. Small, easy to use, good sound & you could even use them in the car! I remember when we bought our dad a Nakamichi BX100 which put right on top of his big mahogany cabinet stereo. Lovely. It really was back then.

I'm digressing. But nostalgia does play a role in the experience for me. Having vinyl in hand, the rituals associated etc. I've looked back a lot. Sometime I think I've just been trying to recreate my dad's old cabinet stereo. Big booming bass, open back spaciousness. Tubes. Vinyl.

When I learned about the possibilities of "HiFi", working and selling audio, I got hooked. Like some of you I've had an awful lot of gear.

Wow, I'm sick, literally. Was shivering all night. Second night in a row!

Anyway... Previous posts point out potential improvements in my vinyl set up. Carts, arms, plinths, different motor schemes etc. No doubt I can improve this. But I think its time to blow the whistle on the expenditure, and start taking a realistic look at what's going on here.

You make me smile. LOL Is this a fantasy or the real world I'm living in? I haven't listened to another system in years. I have no idea what my systems sound like compared to others. They sound good to me. They make some pretty accurate noise to me. I know I can do better. Just don't feel like spending the money. I have a USB DAC sitting on my watch list for over a year. Graham has some things I want. If your dock makes you happy nothing wrong with that.

 

[Zach C.]

Zack, I was about to ask how you really felt about it!!

Yeah, my bad. I don't sleep well, and so my mood is erratic at times, and I'm not always aware of how bad it is.

I hope that my point was not lost to my vitriol.

I was trying to say that you aren't going to get perfection, but should do your best to enjoy it's pursuit, cause life's too short.

The pursuit is the fun part anyway, right?

Any stripper will tell you this. They don't put out, cause that's when the money stops, and they need a new chump.

Zach

 

[Pure_Brew]

That plays a big role for me too, so i can't imagine myself listening the Nutcracker during the Christmas evening just through a digital file or from CD. NOOO! I'll play my Deutsche gramophon mono pressing of it with my Lenco turntable,, just looking how that old turntable squeeze so nice that even older record IT'S JUST PRICELESS!

For several Christmases now i break out my Garrard Type AII changer, with a Shure M3D cart to play old xmas albums. I enjoy it immensely. This year I miss-loaded the changer and I ended up snapping the diamond right off the cantiliver. Got that last replacement from JICO =(

@ Larry - Bohemian Rhapsody? But yeah whatever floats the boat.

 

[speakerman1]

For several Christmases now i break out my Garrard Type AII changer, with a Shure M3D cart to play old xmas albums. I enjoy it immensely. This year I miss-loaded the changer and I ended up snapping the diamond right off the cantiliver. Got that last replacement from JICO =(

@ Larry - Bohemian Rhapsody? But yeah whatever floats the boat.

LOL I don't remember. I could of told you you weren't in Kansas anymore Toto