Denon DR-M4

[derek92994]

Just a two questions (don't take it too serious):

A cassettedeck being High End audio?

What's the definition of High End anyway in this matter?

Anything that pleases your ears and keeps you happy.

 

[derek92994]

Have a listen

Boz Scaggs - Thanks to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT1LBwbdrLI

Hans Theessink - When Luther Played the Blues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FEPubeLEBw

Sanne van Vliet Trio - Estate : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rXm6DWsWEI

 

[Elite-ist]

Those are knock-out recordings, Derek. And recorded from a high quality source. I have the songs playing through my downstairs stereo system and if those recordings sound good here they certainly would be even better-sounding through my main system upstairs.

Nando.

 

[fitz43]

Being purely objective...

Nakamichi ZX-9
Nakamichi 1000ZXL
Revox B215
Sony TC-KA7ES
Sony WM-D6C

Thanks for listing them. I'll have to go look them up.

 

[Dazen1]

Just a two questions (don't take it too serious):

A cassettedeck being High End audio?

What's the definition of High End anyway in this matter?

I believe there are a tiny number of machines that can be regarded as truly high-end.

Those decks will have been well designed, well built and able to squeeze the very best out of every tape presented to it.

Thanks Dazen. I respect your opinion. I feel I progressed with sound quality in obtaining the new Denon Deck, it does some things better than the JVC and the JVC does some things better than the Denon (because of HXPRO). The main thing is that I am happy with the sound and its functioning perfectly, there is always better, but near enough is good enough for me.

As much as I'd love to own one of these, I tend to settle for more economical buys, mainly because I have always been a fairly low income earner most of my life. The JVC and the Denon decks are the only ones I have spent more than $100 on, the rest of the decks I got dirt cheap and fixed them up myself.

Hi Derek,

I appreciate your honesty.

I think the key point is whether you are happy – and clearly you are. That is all that counts and it does not matter what anybody else thinks. I also get the impression from your posts that you are having an enjoyable time experimenting with different decks and discovering which ones work best within your system(s).

As for all this high-end talk - well the law of diminishing returns kick in early with our hobby. You don’t need to spend fortunes to get good sound.

From what I have seen and read, you are well on the path to audio nirvana.

Thanks for listing them. I'll have to go look them up.

Hardly an exhaustive list, but you would do well to check out some of the discussions over at Tapeheads and AK. You will see many other decks mentioned, although most of them can be dismissed (unless they have been modified).

 

[derek92994]

Hardly an exhaustive list, but you would do well to check out some of the discussions over at Tapeheads and AK. You will see many other decks mentioned, although most of them can be dismissed (unless they have been modified).

I think there also should be a high end list of decks which have not been modified electronically (e.g. belt/idler replacements and slight adjustments to the on board pots only).

 

[eminence1963]

Have a listen

Boz Scaggs - Thanks to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT1LBwbdrLI

Hans Theessink - When Luther Played the Blues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FEPubeLEBw

Sanne van Vliet Trio - Estate : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rXm6DWsWEI

They sound pretty awesome to me even with you tube compression
Don't sweat the high end stuff.......

 

[derek92994]

Well you just gotta love adventures with old cassette decks. Recently I noticed there was some slight speed flutter with recording/playback of this deck. Didn't think too much of it as it was ever so slight on high notes and could have possibly been the tape itself etc. I put my 3khz test tape in and sure enough, clear as day, the flutter was there. It has been annoying me more and more as I record different types of music with this deck, and although the sound quality is up to spec after further adjustments, its just not good enough when it comes to the speed flutter. Its ever so slight, like a vibration in the tape transport mechanism.

Anyways, I did the following to try and fix this:

Pulled down the mechanism, re-lubed and cleaned everything, capstan shafts, flywheels, pinch roller arms and bearings etc.
Cleaned the main capstan slave belt and pulleys.

No difference.....

Cleaned pinch rollers and tape path several times, resurfaced pinch rollers, cleaned again. Checked speed, quartz lock functioning perfectly, but slight flutter still there.

Increased pinch roller pressure on both supply take up rollers individually. No difference. Put it back to stock pressure.

Disengaged supply capstan while playing, made it worse, disengaged take up capstan while playing, made it worse

Stopped take up reel momentarily while playing, flutter goes away for this brief moment.

Excessive take up reel torque suspected.

Voltage check on reel motor, read 4 volts as per manual in play mode.

Check voltage during ff/rew mode, read 5 volts as per manual.

Took off reel motor and cleaned pulley, de-oxed inside of motor, lubed main motor bearing, re-assembled, problem still there.

I have no idea how to reduce the voltage of the reel motor to make the torque less during playback, and even if I did the problem could still be there, as flutter only disappears when reel motor is stopped.

So really, I have no idea how to fix this machine as have tried every trick within my knowledge. The reel motor/pinch rollers could also be replaced but it comes down to money I don't have, and a good possibility that it won't fix this issue.

I did get a quote from a professional to fully restore the deck including audio stage and capacitor upgrades, but after postage is factored in, it would come to over $1000, its just not worth it. Would be much better off buying a Nakamichi BX-300 or ZX-9 and leaving it at that, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

So, I will be getting my trusty JVC TD-V661 fired up to re-record the 15 hours of tape that I have done in this Denon, at least the speed is true on it and recording quality almost as good, it just doesn't have that lovely Denon sound that I like. I thought I had the Denon sorted until this flutter issue became more obvious as time passed. I guess they can't all be winners, however the JVC was truly a winner indeed as it was cheaper and has been extremely reliable requiring only a capstan belt.

I don't think I will be purchasing any decks off the bay anymore as my luck has simply run out, but have had some good decks come along in the past that only needed basic tuning, unfortunately not this Denon DR-M4. My next purchase (much later down the track) will be from a Professional who restores decks for a living.

Time for some rest, am exhausted from troubleshooting this thing.

 

[Elite-ist]

I didn't hear any of the speed flutter issues come through on your videos posted of the recordings made on your Denon. And cassette decks are complicated machines to get right. I can't afford the equipment to service one, so I have no choice but to use the services of a professional.

I have heard the Nakamichi ZX-7 in action. Nice deck, but I like the CR-7 just as much and the BX-300 is one worth getting. I lost my opportunity to buy a BX-300 for $150, but then another cassette deck would be pointless.

Nando.

 

[laatsch55]

So....has Nando reached saturation???

 

[Nick Danger]

So....has Nando reached saturation???

That's some funny stuff, my friend. If Nando hasn't, Geri might be close.

 

[Elite-ist]

I would hate to find out Geri's saturation point - she is kind of heart, but of Irish descent. She would make Irish stew out of me and all these collectibles taking up residence, here, if I carted in another cassette deck. Remember our agreement: if something comes in, at least one has to go out. I don't want to be that ONE.

Nando.

 

[Nick Danger]

When your CTF 1250 needs a new home, you give a shout.

 

[laatsch55]

I would hate to find out Geri's saturation point - she is kind of heart, but of Irish descent. She would make Irish stew out of me and all these collectibles taking up residence, here, if I carted in another cassette deck. Remember our agreement: if something comes in, at least one has to go out. I don't want to be that ONE.

Nando.

You a funny guy Nando...

 

[Elite-ist]

Douglas: Geri keeps a steely-eye out for First-Dibs-posts like yours. She probably has a list started I don't know about.

Lee: Once my looks start to fade all I have is my humour.

Nando.

 

[laatsch55]

Don't forget your hair......oh your Italian.....never mind...

 

[derek92994]

I didn't hear any of the speed flutter issues come through on your videos posted of the recordings made on your Denon. And cassette decks are complicated machines to get right. I can't afford the equipment to service one, so I have no choice but to use the services of a professional.

I have heard the Nakamichi ZX-7 in action. Nice deck, but I like the CR-7 just as much and the BX-300 is one worth getting. I lost my opportunity to buy a BX-300 for $150, but then another cassette deck would be pointless.

Nando.

That's because there wasn't any sustained high notes in those tracks. Its a certain note range in the high section, and it has to be sustained to pick it up. Play a 3 khz test tape through the machine and the flutter is clear as day. I can even hear it on certain tracks when playing in the car, now that's saying something. The deck is not right.

This is quite a rare problem. I did have a thought as I was falling asleep though. Maybe put some sort of resistor on the reel motor to lower the take up torque during playback. Its purely mechanical. God knows why Denon didn't put a take up torque adjustment in there, they use a non slip reel idler system where no clutch is used. Rather the voltage to the reel motor is lowered to reduce torque for playback, but its not lowering enough. Either that or the pinch roller needs replacing, but I can tell you it has perfect grip, and no cracks in it. Same goes with my Denon DR-F7 which has the same take up pinch roller, but it does not have the flutter issue.

I was purely happy with the denon m4 sound wise though, its a shame this mechanical bug has me stumped. Although a visit to the electronics store to get some resistors may be my last trick.

Yeah a BX-300 would be nice, but I'd like to wait for a considerable amount of time and just go the whole hog with a ZX-9, but like I said thats a long way away considering my circumstances.

 

[derek92994]

.......and the 15 hours of tapes have to be re-recorded......period (call me obsessive compulsive)

 

[Miracle Mile]

Wow? Flutter?

I didn't hear any of the speed flutter issues come through on your videos posted of the recordings made on your Denon.

Hmmm, I think you have to listen to this one again:

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1rXm6DWsWEI?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>


Important note: I don't have any intentions to piss off the fun of this deck, but you must have in mind this is just middle of the road technology from 30 years back.

It's the fun that counts, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Northwinds]

Could it be the internal reels of the tapes your using causing flutter? I have noticed that some old NOS tapes have issues either caused by the reels or the shell itself. Older tapes exhibit this also because the lub sheet dried out and when it gets really bad, you start getting the squeaking