PL4000 Distortion chasing

BlueCrab

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#1
I acquired an HP 8903B Audio Analyzer a year or two ago, but hadn't really used it. Initially I used it to check a Dynaco PAT4 I bought cheaply off EBay. This PAT4 has a nasty scar and bend in its faceplate. I bought it with the thought of using it to do some experimentation, but that's a different story. Anyhow, this PAT4 tested really well for an original unmodified preamp. When I opened it up I was surprised to find it was really well built - whoever built it did a really professional job - so neat and tidy. THD over the 20-20kHz range was below 0.049% and SINAD measured 66 to 72 db.

Next I tested another Dynaco PAT4 that I had modified using kit bought from Update my Dynaco. New power supply, reduced line level distortion, gold jacks, etc. This one tested better than the one above. Distortion was down in the 0.01 to 0.02% range, SINAD was in the upper 70 db range. BTW, initially it tested poorly on one channel. This was traced to bass tone control was just on the edge. The PAT4 does not have a switch to switch out the tone controls. Instead the bass on treble pots have a "dead" position at the center, which if set to effectively takes the tone circuits out. This control was right on the edge. Once I move it, the preamp worked fine.

Ok, now to the PL4000. I restored this unit - a late model which doesn't have the 4 channel decoder - a few years ago. Front panel is soldered to motherboard. Performance looked good initially at low frequencies until I got up to about 10kHz. Then THD and SINAD takes off. Below 10kHz THD is 0.01 to 0.02%, SINAD starts at almost 80db, but falls to low 60's by 10kHz. At 20kHz THD is almost 2% and SINAD falls to 55dB - both channels. I started digging into it. Long story short my conclusion is the signal tracks that carry the signal to the Correlator boards cause the increase. For the record, these tests were conducted with the tone controls and the Correlator switched out (also the Peak Unlimiter and the Active Eq were off). I've attached a simplified diagram. In this configuration the Correlator boards are not being used - so I removed them - same measurements. Volume control removed - ditto. At this point the preamp is down to just the Input Selector switch and the initial Emitter follower. I ended up cutting the signal trace on the front panel that feeds the signals to the Correlators (just after the Tone Control switch). Distortion and SINAD measured good - 0.03%. As the photos below show, I tried moving the Correlators input resistor (1.2k) to where I had cut the trace. No joy. In the end I decided I don't care about THD at 20kHz as my hearing rolls off nicely below 13kHz and the first harmonic would be at 40kHz - maybe my dog cares. I repaired the cut tracks, put it all back together and retested that everything was ok. It makes impressive eye candy.

Finally I tested an Audio Research SP16 preamp I picked up at a Thrift shop last year. Tube preamp - no tone controls - no balance, but does have a remote control. Measures very well - left/right output is with in a couple of mV (hence no need for a balance control), SINAD is in the low 70 dB range, THD is 0.02% rising to 0.03% at 20kHz.

IMG_1777.JPEG IMG_1777.JPEG IMG_1776.JPEG IMG_1776.JPEG IMG_1775.JPEG
 

George S.

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#3
Thanks for sharing this. It's very interesting. Ultimately I want to do the same testing on the PL2000 preamps using a QuantAsylum unit. Just haven't gotten to it yet.
Is there possibly something on the other side of the board causing the issue?
 

grapplesaw

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#4
I am heading done the 4000-ll rabbit hole in the new year. I’ll watch out for that. Need to surf the net as I remember a discussion on upgrading the correlator circuit
 

e30m3mon

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I am heading done the 4000-ll rabbit hole in the new year. I’ll watch out for that. Need to surf the net as I remember a discussion on upgrading the correlator circuit
I'll be diving in there as well ;)

Anybody know if or what the differences in the 1000-II (and series I) Autocorrelator and the one in the 4000-II ? Aside from the board packaging.
 

BlueCrab

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#6
So, just to be clear, as far as I can tell this increase in THD at higher frequencies is not due to the Autocorrelator boards themselves. It occurs whether or not those boards are installed. I believe it is solely due to the way the signal is routed on the front panel to the motherboard to the Autocorrelator connector. The distortion drops back down to the level seen at 1kHz when the signal traces are cut where the resistors are shown in the photos above. Ultimately the signal goes to just 3 places - The Tone Control switch, the Correlator switch, and the Autocorrelator connector. Resistance checks didn't find any other sneak paths to other circuitry. It occurs for both channels. Measurements are shown below:

I find it interesting the Service Manual specs the THD at less than 0.25% (which the measurements above meet), but then states typical harmonic distortion less than 0.02%.

PL4000 THD and SINAD.png
 

George S.

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#7
Looking forward to see if the other guys have similar issues or not. I saw nothing similar when doing frequency sweeps on the PL2000 using REW software and a USB sound card. Of course my expertise, knowledge, and equipment is sorely lacking.
 

BlueCrab

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#8
Agree. The routing of these signals will be unique to the PL4000 and I suspect cutting all traces and using shielded wire to route the signals would correct the issue. Interesting that after the emitter follower the signal is reduced by 12.5dB (voltage divider made with by a 7.5k & 24k resistors) before it gets to the volume control - which drops the signal even more. Then it gets amplified up to what is outputted. I suspect this was done to match the output of the bass/treble filter circuit and the output of the Autocorrelator, but I hate giving up signal that I've already got - just adds noise both from the resistors and the extra gain eventually needed.

I really don't care about THD at 20kHz - it's meaningless at this freq (pretty much true above 10kHz). None of the distortion is audible. Signal to noise is more important though.
 

BlueCrab

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#10
I do like the Expander on particular types of music - the Who's "Won't get fooled again" comes to mind - Roger Daltrey's primal scream . I'm sure in a live concert they had the amps cranked to max. When I play it for my kids, I often ride the volume control to punch up the dynamic range at the appropriate times.

The Autocorrelator I don't use. I feel it's for those noisy sources which I don't really have today. Maybe someone can enlighten us on when it's really useful.
 

Gepetto

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#11
So, just to be clear, as far as I can tell this increase in THD at higher frequencies is not due to the Autocorrelator boards themselves. It occurs whether or not those boards are installed. I believe it is solely due to the way the signal is routed on the front panel to the motherboard to the Autocorrelator connector. The distortion drops back down to the level seen at 1kHz when the signal traces are cut where the resistors are shown in the photos above. Ultimately the signal goes to just 3 places - The Tone Control switch, the Correlator switch, and the Autocorrelator connector. Resistance checks didn't find any other sneak paths to other circuitry. It occurs for both channels. Measurements are shown below:

I find it interesting the Service Manual specs the THD at less than 0.25% (which the measurements above meet), but then states typical harmonic distortion less than 0.02%.

View attachment 72045
You should file the official complaint with Mr. Carver :)
 

Gepetto

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#12
Looking forward to see if the other guys have similar issues or not. I saw nothing similar when doing frequency sweeps on the PL2000 using REW software and a USB sound card. Of course my expertise, knowledge, and equipment is sorely lacking.
I don't suspect any PL4000 owner has complaints in this area at all. They are still struggling to fix all the broken solder joints on the connectors that were employed :) They would kill to be this far along.
 

George S.

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#13
I do like the Expander on particular types of music - the Who's "Won't get fooled again" comes to mind - Roger Daltrey's primal scream . I'm sure in a live concert they had the amps cranked to max. When I play it for my kids, I often ride the volume control to punch up the dynamic range at the appropriate times.

The Autocorrelator I don't use. I feel it's for those noisy sources which I don't really have today. Maybe someone can enlighten us on when it's really useful.
My feelings exactly about my PL1000 S2. I like the Expander for vinyl, might be because of my age and some hearing loss. Also I like the Expander built into The PL5000 S2 tuner.
What name do you go by "Blue Crab"? Haven't seen very many posts by you since I joined the forum.
 

marcok

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#14
I use The Peak Unlimiter as dynamic range compressor for recent soundtracks
( like Dolby Digital Midnight function ) and as expander for FM broadcasts and some
vinyls . It must be noticed that it's not a real dynamic expander : it works always in compression
mode and it reaches the normal level according the unlimit threshold .
DBX is a real Dynamic expander .
Autocorrelator is generally not engaged : only for some vinyls and for FM is useless .
PL 4000 and PL 1000 use the same boards but the level diagram is different so it's necessary to
modify the unlimit threshokd level adding a resistor on the pot . ( 39 K )
PL 4000 ii and PL 1000 ii have 5 filters for autorrelator like PL 4000 and PL 1000 .
The autocorrelator of Carver C4000 has 7 filters and manual and automatic threshold .

Ciao
Marco
 

BlueCrab

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#15
What name do you go by "Blue Crab"?
Jim will get my attention - my mother used James when I was in trouble. Blue Crab since we live part of the year in the Chesapeake watershed - Crab cakes and Old Bay. We'll head for Florida sunshine after Christmas - getting tired of wearing 40lbs of clothing and it's not even really cold here in MD.

They are still struggling to fix all the broken solder joints on the connectors that were employed
Indeed. I have touched up all on my motherboard. And it's not just the broken solder joints - it's the oxidation that builds up too. From a mechanical perspective, it's a mess. Boards are not mechanically supported properly ("hey, let's throw in a bunch of foam to secure the boards" is not a good engineering answer.)
 

Gepetto

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Jim will get my attention - my mother used James when I was in trouble. Blue Crab since we live part of the year in the Chesapeake watershed - Crab cakes and Old Bay. We'll head for Florida sunshine after Christmas - getting tired of wearing 40lbs of clothing and it's not even really cold here in MD.



Indeed. I have touched up all on my motherboard. And it's not just the broken solder joints - it's the oxidation that builds up too. From a mechanical perspective, it's a mess. Boards are not mechanically supported properly ("hey, let's throw in a bunch of foam to secure the boards" is not a good engineering answer.)
Blue crabs are the best out of the Chesapeake Bay. Lived in MD for 14 years and loved crab season. Good eating.
 

marcok

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Jim will get my attention - my mother used James when I was in trouble. Blue Crab since we live part of the year in the Chesapeake watershed - Crab cakes and Old Bay. We'll head for Florida sunshine after Christmas - getting tired of wearing 40lbs of clothing and it's not even really cold here in MD.



Indeed. I have touched up all on my motherboard. And it's not just the broken solder joints - it's the oxidation that builds up too. From a mechanical perspective, it's a mess. Boards are not mechanically supported properly ("hey, let's throw in a bunch of foam to secure the boards" is not a good engineering answer.)
After S/N 2000 mother board and front panel board were redisegned and so this issue was fixex . ( see service manual )
After S/N 5000 electrolytic caps were replaced with 50 V type instead 35 V . ( a real disaster )
Bad contacts could occur between mother board and front panel board on the right side ( volume pot side ),
so they were soldered together .
I restored two units ( S/N 3xxx and 4xxx ) and I had to fix all these issues ( except mother board )
Below S/N 2000 repairing mother board is probably a "mission impossible ".
You are lucky because Phase Linear engineers fixed most issues except rear connector .
It's a critical design because connectors must be secured on the rear panel and not only
on the mother board .

Ciao
Marco
 
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