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Ok guys, I want to know in cold hard facts, not hyberbole, how a WOPL will be better than this http://www.ebay.com/itm/141499824586
Newbie looking for info on WOPLs
- Thread starter drummergrl
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Check this out for starters and comeback with questions:
http://forums.phxaudiotape.com/showthread.php/3932-Carver-m500t-Reviews-and-opinions
http://forums.phxaudiotape.com/showthread.php/3932-Carver-m500t-Reviews-and-opinions
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What? I have been given no info/ specs about these WOPL's yet. What I'm saying is what are the specs and what are the actual new parts? I have not seen this info yet. That's all. Very simple. Don't get scared.
You say You tell us, How can I tell you? I've never heard one or set eyes on one yet. I don't know what actually goes in a WOPL yet. Why should asking how does it differ from this such amp get an answer like that?
You say You tell us, How can I tell you? I've never heard one or set eyes on one yet. I don't know what actually goes in a WOPL yet. Why should asking how does it differ from this such amp get an answer like that?
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Hey, thanks, really good thread, I mean really good! I don't have new questions though.But this thread does validate my initial question. What about Carver M500t's? Sounds like a guy who is fully committed to AND owns WO modded PL's really likes the sound of these Carver M500t's too. Ok, I do have a question. What do you get for the $3-400 difference for a WOPL compared to a Carver M500T?
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First of all , young lady, scared is totally the wrong conclusion. If you would invest some time, I have published the before and after specs for every WOPL build after I acquired the means to generate said specs. Check the WOPL build threads , all the information is there.
That was not a rude or thoughtless post on my part. Comparing specs will get you exactly what you want, a comparison of specs. Yes it will weed out the obvious imposters. but once you reach a certain level of THD & N, SNR, Residual noise, crosstalk, IMD, Phase lag, those levels of difference are in audible. We have yet to be able to measure SOUNDSTAGE, we have yet to be able to measure sonic impact, we have no idea how a topolgy change will affect the SOUND. All things which SOUND cannot be measured..... so,
Bottom line....we no longer live in a world where you can go to your local brick and mortar and flip switches and decide what sounds best. That's why, last year, we had a QUASI 700B, with only half the known White Oak improvements installed made a 7 month trip around the country. NOBODY PAID A DIME for shipping, nor damage. Some had to take it to a FED-EX terminal to ship it, the shipping was pre-paid. WHY?? Because the questions you asked have no answers. You have to hear how they sound and decide for yourself, everyone hears different, who's to say you hear like Ron, or me?? You don't.
So.....once again. I can not tell you in cold hard facts why a WOPL will sound better than a Carver , that was not rude, or scared, or uninformed, just the cold hard facts, no hyperbole...
That was not a rude or thoughtless post on my part. Comparing specs will get you exactly what you want, a comparison of specs. Yes it will weed out the obvious imposters. but once you reach a certain level of THD & N, SNR, Residual noise, crosstalk, IMD, Phase lag, those levels of difference are in audible. We have yet to be able to measure SOUNDSTAGE, we have yet to be able to measure sonic impact, we have no idea how a topolgy change will affect the SOUND. All things which SOUND cannot be measured..... so,
Bottom line....we no longer live in a world where you can go to your local brick and mortar and flip switches and decide what sounds best. That's why, last year, we had a QUASI 700B, with only half the known White Oak improvements installed made a 7 month trip around the country. NOBODY PAID A DIME for shipping, nor damage. Some had to take it to a FED-EX terminal to ship it, the shipping was pre-paid. WHY?? Because the questions you asked have no answers. You have to hear how they sound and decide for yourself, everyone hears different, who's to say you hear like Ron, or me?? You don't.
So.....once again. I can not tell you in cold hard facts why a WOPL will sound better than a Carver , that was not rude, or scared, or uninformed, just the cold hard facts, no hyperbole...
Here's an AK thread that discusses the Caver amp you've referenced:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111481
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111481
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You're eliciting some interesting discussions here and I like that. I have never heard a Carver M500T but I would speculate that the power supply design although very innovative has limitations that would take a bit of research to give you a good answer.
I sort of figured you were looking for this type of information and the cost will exceed $300 in components for a PL 400 amp if do the full Monty. Here's a list of what is replaced if you go full tilt (going from memory):
New reservoir capacitors (power supply)
New full wave bridge rectifier with snubber caps across all four diodes
New copper bus bar
New controller board and all new components except germanium transistors (two per channel)
New back plane boards and all new components
New output drivers (NPN and PNP for full complementary)
New LED light board with components
New DC protect board with components
New input and output connectors
New PTFE wire - silver coated copper wire
Grounding scheme is modified to a single point ground - aka star ground (lowers the noise floor and eliminates ground loops)
There are some good threads that have lots of photos documenting the above.
Hope this helps - Nav
I sort of figured you were looking for this type of information and the cost will exceed $300 in components for a PL 400 amp if do the full Monty. Here's a list of what is replaced if you go full tilt (going from memory):
New reservoir capacitors (power supply)
New full wave bridge rectifier with snubber caps across all four diodes
New copper bus bar
New controller board and all new components except germanium transistors (two per channel)
New back plane boards and all new components
New output drivers (NPN and PNP for full complementary)
New LED light board with components
New DC protect board with components
New input and output connectors
New PTFE wire - silver coated copper wire
Grounding scheme is modified to a single point ground - aka star ground (lowers the noise floor and eliminates ground loops)
There are some good threads that have lots of photos documenting the above.
Hope this helps - Nav
Try this one for starters:
http://forums.phxaudiotape.com/showthread.php/4653-Northwind-s-400-to-WOPL-500
http://forums.phxaudiotape.com/showthread.php/4653-Northwind-s-400-to-WOPL-500
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Pretty much everything except the enclosure, faceplate, meters and transformer, Michele. Yes, a Carver M1.5T is ALSO sitting around collecting dust here (close friggin' enough to the 500T, without the big VU's popping out front), and that too was something I tried to improve on - brand new outputs, new cap stack, the works. Even totally rebuilt, it just couldn't hold a candle...
Want a 1.5T??
Nah... you don't. (Hey Dave I changed my mind.. lol).
Want a 1.5T??
Nah... you don't. (Hey Dave I changed my mind.. lol).
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Wait until you hear the annoying buzz from a Carver magnetic field amp, when the mag coils go, they are not fixable and replacement parts are non-existent. I had a M1.5T, considered one of the best Carver amps made and it failed miserably. $90 for new output transistors and the hum is still there, can't be fixed. Ask Jer, it's in his closet holding up his wife's shoe rack LMAO
Michele here you go and guys, correct me if I am wrong with anything, I am not an electron herder
You get (2) backplane 4layer boards that replace the old TO3 circuitry for each channel, improved signal response and QUIET
You get a control board that Joe corrected all the mistakes Bob made when he designed the original PL's either through cost cutting or lack of quality parts in comparison to what is available today. He basically redesigned the driver board components and routing scheme for added detail and QUIET
You get a DC protection board so you won't see your speakers catch on fire if you managed somehow to take an output transistor out (I have not been able to and I am the resident WOPL beater)
You get the light meter board so you can actually see what your meters are doing instead of trying to see what they are doing through dingy low yellow light. They are also two position so you have control of sensitivity, especially in the midrange
You get huge power reserve caps that double and then some your reserve power meaning the amp won't clip where others have already given up the ghost because they ran out of juice or were not quick enough to react to demanding dynamic passages
All the transistors, diodes, capacitors etc... are top quality. Joe did not scrimp on his packages, not many amp makers can boast the same and when they can, your going to pay 10-15 times more for the priviledge
Specs are just part of the deal but the WOPL sports flat response through the range of human hearing, this means no eq type coloring, your hearing exactly what the preamp feeds it which is why a good preamp is important. My Perreaux is a killer World Class preamp but it is not as quiet as the WOPL!!!!!
You buy that Carver... do you get a lifetime guarantee??? Or know someone who can actually fix one when it starts buzzing?
Sometimes it takes a leap of faith or the courage to try something new. These WOPL's are not typical mainstream amps, they are true boutique items, exclusive yet accessible to any one willing to try
I had a Mark Levinson 333, no Carver except maybe the Silver 7's could compete with it and it's gone and a WOPL resides on my shelf. If that does not convince you, nothing will
Maybe your just not ready to take that leap of faith and I can respect that. You can always get a potentially problematic M80, Carver amps that buzz like bees and other amps that you might like but later on, will be on AK for sale. The WOPL inspires awe and reverence just mentioning the name, they are already legendary amps and they are only a few years old
EDIT: No one here will force sell you a WOPL, we can give our insights only. Sometimes you just have to have faith after the questions are answered. Then again, you never will know until you try so that's the conundrum you face
I would not steer you wrong honey but sometimes we are driving in different directions. This is why I told you to read everything you could about WOPL's. If your looking for scientifics, Joe needs to step in. He won't sell you anything, he will just tell you like it is and why. Do you know how many WOPL's are spread around the World now with people grinning ear to ear? Your also forgetting that the stock PL units drove huge name bands soundsystems for years. Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, Aerosmith, ELP and probably others. That's a pedigree not to be denied and Joe makes them BETTER
When and IF your ready to commit to the best thing your ears have heard, Jerry asks that you PM him directly to get yours going, your in safe hands with him Michele, I bet my reputation on it
Michele here you go and guys, correct me if I am wrong with anything, I am not an electron herder
You get (2) backplane 4layer boards that replace the old TO3 circuitry for each channel, improved signal response and QUIET
You get a control board that Joe corrected all the mistakes Bob made when he designed the original PL's either through cost cutting or lack of quality parts in comparison to what is available today. He basically redesigned the driver board components and routing scheme for added detail and QUIET
You get a DC protection board so you won't see your speakers catch on fire if you managed somehow to take an output transistor out (I have not been able to and I am the resident WOPL beater)
You get the light meter board so you can actually see what your meters are doing instead of trying to see what they are doing through dingy low yellow light. They are also two position so you have control of sensitivity, especially in the midrange
You get huge power reserve caps that double and then some your reserve power meaning the amp won't clip where others have already given up the ghost because they ran out of juice or were not quick enough to react to demanding dynamic passages
All the transistors, diodes, capacitors etc... are top quality. Joe did not scrimp on his packages, not many amp makers can boast the same and when they can, your going to pay 10-15 times more for the priviledge
Specs are just part of the deal but the WOPL sports flat response through the range of human hearing, this means no eq type coloring, your hearing exactly what the preamp feeds it which is why a good preamp is important. My Perreaux is a killer World Class preamp but it is not as quiet as the WOPL!!!!!
You buy that Carver... do you get a lifetime guarantee??? Or know someone who can actually fix one when it starts buzzing?
Sometimes it takes a leap of faith or the courage to try something new. These WOPL's are not typical mainstream amps, they are true boutique items, exclusive yet accessible to any one willing to try
I had a Mark Levinson 333, no Carver except maybe the Silver 7's could compete with it and it's gone and a WOPL resides on my shelf. If that does not convince you, nothing will
Maybe your just not ready to take that leap of faith and I can respect that. You can always get a potentially problematic M80, Carver amps that buzz like bees and other amps that you might like but later on, will be on AK for sale. The WOPL inspires awe and reverence just mentioning the name, they are already legendary amps and they are only a few years old
EDIT: No one here will force sell you a WOPL, we can give our insights only. Sometimes you just have to have faith after the questions are answered. Then again, you never will know until you try so that's the conundrum you face
I would not steer you wrong honey but sometimes we are driving in different directions. This is why I told you to read everything you could about WOPL's. If your looking for scientifics, Joe needs to step in. He won't sell you anything, he will just tell you like it is and why. Do you know how many WOPL's are spread around the World now with people grinning ear to ear? Your also forgetting that the stock PL units drove huge name bands soundsystems for years. Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, Aerosmith, ELP and probably others. That's a pedigree not to be denied and Joe makes them BETTER
When and IF your ready to commit to the best thing your ears have heard, Jerry asks that you PM him directly to get yours going, your in safe hands with him Michele, I bet my reputation on it
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When I signed up on this forum I was encouraged to ask questions. Ask away I'm told. So I start asking... like any good consumer should. Hell its a lot of money we're talking here. So look at the title of my thread: Newbie looking for info! You are forewarned I'm asking questions. WOPL is a brand unto itself really. So one of the ways to understand a product is to compare it to similar products out there and that's what I've been doing. I have not heard any of these other amps I've been asking about but others have, including many here. Yet the unhelpful answer I get is, 'buy it and you tell us.' Well so much for ask away. Am I the only one who finds that a bit contentious? Then comes 'first of all young lady (anyone else picture finger wagging when they read those word?)...if you would invest some time.' Invest some time!? Look at the time stamps of my posts. I've barely been off this site except to sleep since Ron turned me on to it 2 days ago. I've been sorting through threads but its a new forum to me; I'm a little lost still. But really I hesitate to even bring this all up because next we'll start talking about whether being called young lady as a full grown woman is patronizing or not and I really just want to talk about audio!
So let's move on. Thanks Ron and NavLinear, that's exactly some of the info I've needed.
I'm committed Ron. I've told you several times that I trust you. But I'll still ask questions. I like turning over every stone and seeing what's underneath. It may be something we've never seen before- a new discovery or not but its still the process for me. Haven't any of you ever experienced really wanting something that someone you trust recommended, but asked a lot of questions to make sure the recommendation was right? Like you have a friend who extolls the virtues of his BMW, say, and you get excited and want one too. But while you're out shopping for a BMW you see a Hyundai that mimics that high-priced European car but for much less money and you say to your friend, hey is the BMW really all that much better than this? You're learning and asking. Its how we validate our decisions.
And it's not like I'm not enjoying music at a pretty nice level already. I want to be careful that I'm not just chasing after more and bigger all the time in this hobby. I mean $1000 buys a lot of new music too...or oil in the tank. I do live in Maine
So let's move on. Thanks Ron and NavLinear, that's exactly some of the info I've needed.
I'm committed Ron. I've told you several times that I trust you. But I'll still ask questions. I like turning over every stone and seeing what's underneath. It may be something we've never seen before- a new discovery or not but its still the process for me. Haven't any of you ever experienced really wanting something that someone you trust recommended, but asked a lot of questions to make sure the recommendation was right? Like you have a friend who extolls the virtues of his BMW, say, and you get excited and want one too. But while you're out shopping for a BMW you see a Hyundai that mimics that high-priced European car but for much less money and you say to your friend, hey is the BMW really all that much better than this? You're learning and asking. Its how we validate our decisions.
And it's not like I'm not enjoying music at a pretty nice level already. I want to be careful that I'm not just chasing after more and bigger all the time in this hobby. I mean $1000 buys a lot of new music too...or oil in the tank. I do live in Maine
My buddy had a BMW...biggest piece of shit I ever drove. Not only did it break all the time, it was some expensive to fix..... just sayin.
You wont be able to compare anything other than specs, which in the end means nothing. You can show me specs all day long and I wouldnt be able to tell you how good an amp is. To be comparative with anything, you must have experience with at least 1 of what you are comparing. While sure, lots of us have heard good gear, throwing random model numbers out there in hopes that a member has tried it, and compared it to a white oak, is just coincidence really.
Lee is one of the nicest guys around, I wouldnt take too much offense to what was said. Remember, text can be interpreted any way you want while reading it. That doesnt mean its always exactly as we think.
You wont be able to compare anything other than specs, which in the end means nothing. You can show me specs all day long and I wouldnt be able to tell you how good an amp is. To be comparative with anything, you must have experience with at least 1 of what you are comparing. While sure, lots of us have heard good gear, throwing random model numbers out there in hopes that a member has tried it, and compared it to a white oak, is just coincidence really.
Lee is one of the nicest guys around, I wouldnt take too much offense to what was said. Remember, text can be interpreted any way you want while reading it. That doesnt mean its always exactly as we think.