I guess this is where one publicly states they are a masochist?

mlucitt

Veteran and General Yakker
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Messages
3,367
Location
Jacksonville, FL
#21
Lots of good information here hitting around the bullseye. Your issue is known as the dreaded "Latch up" and was know at Phase Linear for years. They could not fix it even though they tried, it might have caused the company collapse to the point where they were bought by Pioneer Electronics in 1979. The problem was identified, and solved, by our mentor Joe King (Gepetto here). It proved to be a pair of transistors in the front end of the amplifier both turning on fully at, or just after, start up and it was caused by a capacitor that was charging too quickly. The outcome was that the control board caused the circuit to latch up and send the full rail voltage (often -100VDC) typically to the Left channel. The issue was random and affected some amplifiers but not others. This generated the nicknames, "Flame Linear" and "Blaze Linear" due to the many destroyed speakers.
Joe designed and created the White Oak Audio Design Phase Linear Control Board (to replace the Phase Linear 14, 14A, 14B, PL14B, PL20, PL20A, and PL20B control boards; and later, the PL400C2, PL36, and the 400/700 AMP BD (I have each of these original boards).
Joe used software called SPICE to simulate the problem and solved it elegantly. The result is the current version WOA (Rev G1) PL14_20 Control Board. Not only does this Control Board eliminate the latch up, but it is a true Dual Mono circuit board with state of the art components selected by Joe to improve the audio quality and reliability of the entire amplifier. The result is less distortion, tighter bass, improved stereo separation, and consistency because there are no capacitors in the audio path.
The WOA Control Board can be ordered as a kit, or you can buy one fully assembled and tested. I also recommend the WOA PL400 Capacitor Kit because the life expectancy of the main power supply capacitors is 20-30 years and your are likely older than that. As a bonus, the WOA capacitors take advantage of technology and pack more storage capacity into the same size package.
The above is referred to as a Stage One Upgrade to the Phase Linear amplifier. Stage Two replaces all the backplane wiring and obsolete output transistor sockets with two circuit boards to enhance the efficiency of the amplifier and reduce noise even further. Stage Two also replaces all the antique output transistors with modern devices having much improved ratings; this also converts the amplifier from quasi-complementary operation to fully complementary operation. The result is stunning sound on par with McIntosh, Krell, AR, or any other comparable amplifier at any price.
 

gene french

Veteran and General Yakker
Joined
Mar 6, 2022
Messages
5,152
Location
guayabo de bagaces, guanacaste, costa rica....
Tagline
music...the healer of souls...
#22
Anybody
What a good producer for using both, back in the day, all we had was Variac only. (never used Both)
(some say you should not use both)

Bulb Watt , does anybody have a chart what size to use and what's the differents? pro and cons
good example a shorted , Preamp , 400 and 700 using what would a 15w compared to a 120w?
and when the Device is good?

Thanks
a 100 watt bulb will pass almost 1 amp....
smaller bulbs will pass less ....
the 400s have 8 amp line fuses ..
mine pulls a bit over 2 amps idling...5 amps pushing it....
with the dbt your rail voltage will be less than 60v...
shouldnt use dbt past testing....
 

laatsch55

Administrator,
Staff member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
74,217
Location
Gillette, Wyo.
Tagline
Halfbiass...Electron Herder and Backass Woof
#23
First things first;
1. Obtain a service manual
2. Read and comprehend service manual.
3. Perform basic tests as outlined in service manual.
4.post questions you may have of procedures or results.

The PL manual is well written to break down what may be wrong. It is not an exhaustive test but will get you quite close and we can get you the rest of the wsy.
The desire to know what's wrong and be able to fix it is strong, and in some cases preferable to a full blown upgrade. Honing your fix it skills on something already wounded is , in my book, better than wounding new, expensive White Oak parts.
A probe slip, a part installed backwards, a solder blob, cold solder joint, etc , all lead to bad outcomes. Better to get those nastyev habits recognized on old parts if that's what it takes.
Here at Phoenix we are all dedicated to an individual's success at making your amp run again. But, our time is limited as we all have other things to do and you may be handed off between a dozen members, so have patience with us as we will with you and believe that those off handed, off topic , or sarcastic remarks aren't really personal....just the way things work around here.
BTW--- Welcome To Phoenix.
 

gene french

Veteran and General Yakker
Joined
Mar 6, 2022
Messages
5,152
Location
guayabo de bagaces, guanacaste, costa rica....
Tagline
music...the healer of souls...
#25
First things first;
1. Obtain a service manual
2. Read and comprehend service manual.
3. Perform basic tests as outlined in service manual.
4.post questions you may have of procedures or results.

The PL manual is well written to break down what may be wrong. It is not an exhaustive test but will get you quite close and we can get you the rest of the wsy.
The desire to know what's wrong and be able to fix it is strong, and in some cases preferable to a full blown upgrade. Honing your fix it skills on something already wounded is , in my book, better than wounding new, expensive White Oak parts.
A probe slip, a part installed backwards, a solder blob, cold solder joint, etc , all lead to bad outcomes. Better to get those nastyev habits recognized on old parts if that's what it takes.
Here at Phoenix we are all dedicated to an individual's success at making your amp run again. But, our time is limited as we all have other things to do and you may be handed off between a dozen members, so have patience with us as we will with you and believe that those off handed, off topic , or sarcastic remarks aren't really personal....just the way things work around here.
BTW--- Welcome To Phoenix.
wow...
well grounded advice!!!
perfectly describes my sentiments .
..all in due time!!!
 

Rabbit 16v

New Around These Parts
Joined
Dec 28, 2022
Messages
11
#30
Lots of good information here hitting around the bullseye. Your issue is known as the dreaded "Latch up" and was know at Phase Linear for years. They could not fix it even though they tried, it might have caused the company collapse to the point where they were bought by Pioneer Electronics in 1979. The problem was identified, and solved, by our mentor Joe King (Gepetto here). It proved to be a pair of transistors in the front end of the amplifier both turning on fully at, or just after, start up and it was caused by a capacitor that was charging too quickly. The outcome was that the control board caused the circuit to latch up and send the full rail voltage (often -100VDC) typically to the Left channel. The issue was random and affected some amplifiers but not others. This generated the nicknames, "Flame Linear" and "Blaze Linear" due to the many destroyed speakers.
Joe designed and created the White Oak Audio Design Phase Linear Control Board (to replace the Phase Linear 14, 14A, 14B, PL14B, PL20, PL20A, and PL20B control boards; and later, the PL400C2, PL36, and the 400/700 AMP BD (I have each of these original boards).
Joe used software called SPICE to simulate the problem and solved it elegantly. The result is the current version WOA (Rev G1) PL14_20 Control Board. Not only does this Control Board eliminate the latch up, but it is a true Dual Mono circuit board with state of the art components selected by Joe to improve the audio quality and reliability of the entire amplifier. The result is less distortion, tighter bass, improved stereo separation, and consistency because there are no capacitors in the audio path.
The WOA Control Board can be ordered as a kit, or you can buy one fully assembled and tested. I also recommend the WOA PL400 Capacitor Kit because the life expectancy of the main power supply capacitors is 20-30 years and your are likely older than that. As a bonus, the WOA capacitors take advantage of technology and pack more storage capacity into the same size package.
The above is referred to as a Stage One Upgrade to the Phase Linear amplifier. Stage Two replaces all the backplane wiring and obsolete output transistor sockets with two circuit boards to enhance the efficiency of the amplifier and reduce noise even further. Stage Two also replaces all the antique output transistors with modern devices having much improved ratings; this also converts the amplifier from quasi-complementary operation to fully complementary operation. The result is stunning sound on par with McIntosh, Krell, AR, or any other comparable amplifier at any price.

Good info for sure here! Thanks! Interestingly it was the right channel that failed on mine. I think I may just go the stage one repair route on the PL400 and do the full meal deal on the PL700. The description of the symptom is pretty much exactly what I surmise happened. It certainly smelled quite melty. Although, I had not just turned it on. It was running for about an hour prior to the "event". Thanks for taking the time to write all that up
 

Rabbit 16v

New Around These Parts
Joined
Dec 28, 2022
Messages
11
#32
First things first;
1. Obtain a service manual
2. Read and comprehend service manual.
3. Perform basic tests as outlined in service manual.
4.post questions you may have of procedures or results.

The PL manual is well written to break down what may be wrong. It is not an exhaustive test but will get you quite close and we can get you the rest of the wsy.
The desire to know what's wrong and be able to fix it is strong, and in some cases preferable to a full blown upgrade. Honing your fix it skills on something already wounded is , in my book, better than wounding new, expensive White Oak parts.
A probe slip, a part installed backwards, a solder blob, cold solder joint, etc , all lead to bad outcomes. Better to get those nastyev habits recognized on old parts if that's what it takes.
Here at Phoenix we are all dedicated to an individual's success at making your amp run again. But, our time is limited as we all have other things to do and you may be handed off between a dozen members, so have patience with us as we will with you and believe that those off handed, off topic , or sarcastic remarks aren't really personal....just the way things work around here.
BTW--- Welcome To Phoenix.

Thanks. I think I have located a service manual the other day. Just need to review it. Im pretty careful about things like probe slips and installing components backwards and whatnot. I am an excellent solderer as I used to manufacture test boards and battery components for medical equipment, so QC was pretty high there.

This is not my first foray into the internet, so offhand remarks and such may be responded to accordingly, lol!
 

NeverSatisfied

Chief Journeyman
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
Messages
915
Location
Houston Texas
Tagline
Play the Game, don’t be the Game
#40
Welcome aboard, this group is incredible and you will not find a more knowledgeable and helpful collective anywhere.
Still can’t figure out how Nav keeps finding all these pictures of my ex girlfriends, amazing ;)
 
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