DCP going south??

Gepetto

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lol ok Lee we got to keep your record 100% :blob5:
Ray just lift one end of D9 L/R and D10L/R for a while and give the amp a shake down for a while in a situation where it was tripping the DCP before. If it does not trip any more, then you know the effect is coming from the SOA protection circuit.

If this produces results that does not trip the DCP, then change out R24/25 with the 13K 1/2W SFF resistors I sent you and reattach D9/D10 and give it another shake down.

If your trip problems do not reoccur, then you have isolated it to random clipping of the SOA circuit causing your DCP problem.
 
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I hope so... the thing that bothers me about this is when I first finished the build I did not have a preamp all I had was my 939 which I pulled the jumpers out to bypass the amp in it to use it as a preamp, I ran this for several weeks and never had a problem, then I got the C-1 and ran it stock for a couple weeks again no problem, then I did mod upgrade to C-1, there are 3 phases of the upgrade.. 1st phase is recapping, I did this and ran it for a week or so no problem to this point the DCP never tripped, the second phase of the C-1 upgrade is replacing opamps which I did and this is where the problem began when I hooked it up to the amp and turned it on I heard some very bad sounds coming out of the speakers I shut everything down right away.. everything looked ok on the dim bulb test with the C-1 after I put the opamps in but something was bad wrong

I pulled the C-1 out of the system and reconnected the wopl back to the 939 for my preamp and in a short time the DCP tripped, first time it ever tripped it did it many times from there. Then my wife came home with a PL3000 preamp I connected it up to the wopl and it to was tripping the DCP, I took the C-1 to a carver tech and he found 2 of the opamps I put in were bad and blew 2 transistors in the C-1, when I got the C-1 back I connected it back to the wopl and still the DCP would trip now and then

My bottom line thoughts are the wopl went from never a problem DCP never tripped then literally 1 moment later problems with the DCP tripping frequently only after connecting the faulty C-1, I did not change the way I listened to my music or change anything else if those opamps blew transistors in the C-1 then I question if it could have damaged any transistors in the wopl, these resistors could be a contributing factor here but the way this went down makes me think there may be something else there
The only way you would really know is to plug the C1 back in after the WOPL is repaired and see what happens. The only other way as Lee said earlier is check every single component. Unless you have another amplifier that you could check the C1 with, either way I think you would want to know if there is something wrong with the C1 so that it does not damage anything else. Definitely weird the way it all happened.
 

roccus

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The only way you would really know is to plug the C1 back in after the WOPL is repaired and see what happens. The only other way as Lee said earlier is check every single component. Unless you have another amplifier that you could check the C1 with, either way I think you would want to know if there is something wrong with the C1 so that it does not damage anything else. Definitely weird the way it all happened.
this would be ok except my 939 also trips it as well as my pl3000 so it's not just the c-1 and the c-1 got a clean bill of health from one of the countries leading vintage carver techs
 

NavLinear

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I think you've missed the point Ray. The problem began when you used the amplifier as part of your test circuit while rolling the C1 preamplifier op amps. Lee and Joe have led you down the path of a potential SOA circuit problem and they have a presented a solution. If the SOA circuit is at fault it will cause the problem you're seeing with any preamp that you use. I'd suggest that you heed their advice and replace the resistor with the specified value.
 

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I think you've missed the point Ray. The problem began when you used the amplifier as part of your test circuit while rolling the C1 preamplifier op amps. Lee and Joe have led you down the path of a potential SOA circuit problem and they have a presented a solution. If the SOA circuit is at fault it will cause the problem you're seeing with any preamp that you use. I'd suggest that you heed their advice and replace the resistor with the specified value.
Most definitely replacing those resistors is the next step and from what they have said this is a known issue that I will take care of Joe is kindly sending replacement resistors when they get here I will put them in and if they ask for any further test I will do them before lugging it back out to the shop to connect to my big speakers to be able to run it wide open
 

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It was not known until 2 or 3 weeks ago. Jer had a 400 doing the same thing , nadude's 400 drove him nuts for awhile and Tim's 700 dud the same for me, but in both cases the root failure was not the same as yours. So it's not wise sometimes to apply the same fix if the root cause is not the same.ALL failure modes are not known for a White Oak amp yet. Joe is not God. The amps in question are not on his bench , so he does the best he can with the information he has , which is often incomplete , and with all of us having different levels of competency , he must feel like he's walking through a minefield most of the time.
In my day job I'll have pumpers call in with a problem. A lot of things can go wrong with an oil well or disposal plant. Solving those problems over the phone doesn't happen all the time. Often I have to show up on location , and usually , a component has failed. Whether that component failed because some one left the wrong valve closed (or open) , or the wrong switch on (or off) is impossible to determine sometimes...BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE. I've been doing my job since the fall of 1975, yep , 41 years, and I still don't know or have seen , all the ways something can go wrong in a million dollar injection plant. They are like a giant circuit, with mechanical and electrical and human components, buy unlike Joe, I can actually go out and SEE what is happening (or not happening), and it still drives me nuts sometimes. Imagine how Joe feels sometimes . Here we are trying to assemble and use his creations in often abusive ways, often to the point of destruction, through no.fsult of his own, and he is called on to help fix it. I have literally destroyed a few amps, and Joe has patiently and kindly guided me through their resurrection and at times has modified his design to alleviate some of the damage caused. From personal experience I know how frustrating that can be. In the oilfield we call that " making it wormproof", a difficult process at best. Joe does a damn good job in that regard. The WOPL'S are a lot more robust than whence they started and will continue to be moreso.

So, why the long diatribe?? Your comment on it being a " known issue". It can't be known until it can be replicated, and how do you replicate YOUR root failure? How do we replicate any mistakes along the way? This is not a perfect process, but the end result of having a Top of the Line amp at a fraction of the price is worth a bump or two along the road , and a lot of dedicated and committed people here are willing to help, and we also.have day jobs and other responsibilities that may interfere with timely help. And then there's the numerous emails, pm's and parallel troubleshooting going on behind the scenes that you aren't aware of. I would love to to dedicate more time and effort to the process, but right now Marlin Oil is fighting for its life and with so many external factors beyond our control it's a 50/50 proposition right now.
So, to sum up, your problem WILL be solved, one way or the other......
 

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Most definitely replacing those resistors is the next step and from what they have said this is a known issue that I will take care of Joe is kindly sending replacement resistors when they get here I will put them in and if they ask for any further test I will do them before lugging it back out to the shop to connect to my big speakers to be able to run it wide open
Ray
When your C-1 preamp failed and caused the loud noise through the amp and speakers, did it blow the 5A AGX fuses in at least one of the two rail fuses? It should have done that for such an abnormal event.
 

roccus

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Ray
When your C-1 preamp failed and caused the loud noise through the amp and speakers, did it blow the 5A AGX fuses in at least one of the two rail fuses? It should have done that for such an abnormal event.
No none of the rail fuses blew... great point there!
 

roccus

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lol wow Lee how much coffee you drink this morning??? The resistor thing it would seem is now a known problem and I see you and Joe are addressing it and you have no idea how much I appreciate all the help and input here from everyone at this point I don't care how long it takes to get the wopl back up to snuff that amp is for my main setup in the shop and the shop is pretty much shut down now till next April so it is sitting on the end of my bench and as I wait for parts here and there for it I am not a very good writer with words I have been trying to give as much detail as possible of what happened, the symptoms of what is happening, and things I try to get it to duplicate the problem out there for you to see and look over. sometimes I repeat things as time goes by and info can get lost in a thread as it grows I only hope the details I try to provide will only help all here and I hope this thread can become another source of valuable info for this forum and the pl community so yes I ask a lot of questions it is how I learn things it is one thing to do something but if you don't understand what you are doing or why you are doing it then you are not learning I have other projects to work on so it's all good... now I gots to go me another coffee this post done wore me down!! lol

I love this line can I have it??? :toothy5: it's so true!
<b data-find="_5" style="color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 10px;">
"use his creations in often abusive ways, often to the point of destruction"​



</b>
 

roccus

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Are you running the 5A AGX instrument fuses Ray? That is what is supposed to be in there to protect the output stages.
I'm pretty sure that is what they are 5 amp FB I got the mouser number from here and ordered them when I started the build... I think the other one is 8 amp FB wen I go up to my bench I will double check that
 

laatsch55

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lol wow Lee how much coffee you drink this morning??? The resistor thing it would seem is now a known problem and I see you and Joe are addressing it and you have no idea how much I appreciate all the help and input here from everyone at this point I don't care how long it takes to get the wopl back up to snuff that amp is for my main setup in the shop and the shop is pretty much shut down now till next April so it is sitting on the end of my bench and as I wait for parts here and there for it I am not a very good writer with words I have been trying to give as much detail as possible of what happened, the symptoms of what is happening, and things I try to get it to duplicate the problem out there for you to see and look over. sometimes I repeat things as time goes by and info can get lost in a thread as it grows I only hope the details I try to provide will only help all here and I hope this thread can become another source of valuable info for this forum and the pl community so yes I ask a lot of questions it is how I learn things it is one thing to do something but if you don't understand what you are doing or why you are doing it then you are not learning I have other projects to work on so it's all good... now I gots to go me another coffee this post done wore me down!! lol

I love this line can I have it??? :toothy5: it's so true!
"use his creations in often abusive ways, often to the point of destruction"​





Not a problem Ray......yep a lot can get lost in translation, and my main point was a call for patience, which, at times, can be in small supply.......


 

Gepetto

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Not a problem Ray......yep a lot can get lost in translation, and my main point was a call for patience, which, at times, can be in small supply.......


[/B]
Or the way I always put it, you waited 40+ years to do this. Surely it will wait a few more weeks :)
 

roccus

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Or the way I always put it, you waited 40+ years to do this. Surely it will wait a few more weeks :)
got nothing but time I know in the end it will be a kick as dependable amp and a huge bonus I will have learned a lot
 

roccus

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Ray just lift one end of D9 L/R and D10L/R for a while and give the amp a shake down for a while in a situation where it was tripping the DCP before. If it does not trip any more, then you know the effect is coming from the SOA protection circuit.

If this produces results that does not trip the DCP, then change out R24/25 with the 13K 1/2W SFF resistors I sent you and reattach D9/D10 and give it another shake down.

If your trip problems do not reoccur, then you have isolated it to random clipping of the SOA circuit causing your DCP problem.
OK so the replacement resistors got here this afternoon from Joe so I replaced them in R24 and R25 on left and right channel then I powered it up and saw smoke start to come out of D9 on the right side did not look to see if it was also coming out of D9 on the left side as I shut it down right away..... :pale:
 

Gepetto

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OK so the replacement resistors got here this afternoon from Joe so I replaced them in R24 and R25 on left and right channel then I powered it up and saw smoke start to come out of D9 on the right side did not look to see if it was also coming out of D9 on the left side as I shut it down right away..... :pale:
Sorry Ray, typo in earlier note below. 13K go in R25/26 not R24/25.
 

roccus

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Sorry Ray, typo in earlier note below. 13K go in R25/26 not R24/25.
OK well I dim bulb with variac powered it up again no smoke passed dim bulb test but something blew as the sound is all scratchy and distorted now I'll go swap the resistors around....
 

roccus

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well I think I'm really screwed now one of the 5A fuses was blown I replaced it turned waited a second to see if the dcp would trip I think the dcp tripped but saw a spark come out of the dcp when it did... now both 5A fuses blown... I was running it earlier and it was running fine at low volume but where I put the wrong resistor in R24 I must have done some serious damage somewhere now the dcp may even be damaged as well??
 
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