Clickety Clack.

[Pure_Brew]

Howdy,
Can you hear tapes lightly clicking/clacking normally when they are playing? I can't remember if this is how things used to be, but when I listen quietly it's annoying. This comes and goes, like something is lined up fine then not etc. It's not wicked loud, but worth the question. CTF9191 FYI.

Here it is again...
[attachment=0:1t39z5nf]IMG_0239.JPG[/attachment:1t39z5nf]
Thanks,
Joe

 

[Elite-ist]

Joe, are you having this issue with all types of cassettes, including the Maxell UR and the NOS BASF you just bought? I know some poorer quality cassette shells can rattle on fast foward and reverse. But, during playback, normally, there shouldn't be the sound you are describing.

Nando.

 

[stuwee]

Isolate if it's the tape or the Pioneer, no it's not normal, you shouldn't hear any noise during playback.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Nando- I have heard this on both kinds of tapes. I remember looking at the UR and because it's shiney, I could see the shell move very very slightly with the clicking. This happens during normal play and doesn't seem to affect the sound negatively that I can tell. Seems to stop, then it comes back, then it goes away.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Up late too stuwee?

Maybe it's from warped reels? Almost looks a little warped.

 

[stuwee]

Up late too stuwee?

Hehe, I'm 3 hours behind you, it's not late for me , but I do have some TV shows to catch up on, see ya's in the morning

 

[Pure_Brew]

Hmm I can't really tell if it's the tape or the deck. Could be the pinch roller assembly. The rubber parts in this deck are pretty dried out too. I never changed out the flywheel belt since it seems functional and really hard to get too. Ah well, I'm sure I'll figure it out. Maybe...

 

[speakerman1]

Watch the tape cassette its self. Does it look like the body is moving? Watch the capstans. With and without a tape.

Larry

 

[Web Police]

Take the well cover off or overide the micro switch that tells the deck there is a cassette in the well, then see if you hear the clicking without a tape. Sounds like the capstan maybe drifting in and out or some other mechanical misalignment or binding.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Well, one of the reels looks warped...slightly...on the BASF. The search continues.

Larry- I thought I saw the UR body move slightly when it was clicking.

Maybe I'm also being overly cautious about cleaning and lubricating. Seems really hard to get at all the internal parts and I would hate to screw up this deck. Even a good tech could have a accident and damage an irreplaceable part. Based on how dirty this deck was and all the cleaning and lubricating I had to do, I'm sure that the inner workings of the ff,rw,play,record all need a good cleanup too. Maybe I should decide to dive in at some point, the dirty parts would wear quicker I imagine.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Take the well cover off or overide the micro switch that tells the deck there is a cassette in the well, then see if you hear the clicking without a tape. Sounds like the capstan maybe drifting in and out or some other mechanical misalignment or binding.

I can get the capstan rolling with no tape by holding a switch down near the top of the door. No clicking.

 

[Web Police]

Do the reel tables turn? and are they making the noise? Could just be the cassette reels clicking in a crappy tape. If it does it with all tapes then I would say the deck has a problem somewhere.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Do the reel tables turn? and are they making the noise? Could just be the cassette reels clicking in a crappy tape. If it does it with all tapes then I would say the deck has a problem somewhere.

Hi Web,
What's a reel table?

I have tried to get this to click with no tape. I checked the owners manual on how to "fool" it into acting like a tape is in so it will fully engage (for cleaning etc). There is no clicking. There is only the light sound of things moving.

I wonder though, it seems like it's possible, that the white plastic gear that turns the reel, could be causing this.

While I'm no expert, the capstan and this gear seem to move at precisely the same time. If there are differences in speed, I would think that there is some sort of compensation for the slight differences between the two. There is a spring in/on each of those and they appear to be VERY dry.

I'm guessing that there is some sort of difference in reel tension here as the tape plays as the clicking varies according to how much tape mass is on either side of the reel. And that is definitely noteworthy, as the clicking never starts right away, shows up with about the same amount of tape on the played side, changes when there is about the same tape on both reels, and finally changes again when nearing the end.

If it's not that gear(s) directly, then i have a cascaded problem beginning deeper inside the deck-maybe.

Is it safe for me to lubricate these white plastic gears and the springs on 'em?

Thanks

 

[Web Police]

The reel tables are the white plastic hubs. They probably could use some lubrication from behind and the clicking may be due to a worn idler tire that drives the white hubs or reel tables. It probably only manifests itself when there is a load on them. The clicking could be due to one of them not having the correct tension, and every so often the lagging one gets pulled ahead by the leading one.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Yeah I think your on to something. The play reel table is wobbly I think. It moves pretty slow so it's hard to see. I thought that the reels in the cassettes were warped, and now I'm pretty sure the warping "look" is the wobbly reel table moving the reel slightly. I always thought that FF looked a little odd, since the tape vibrates like crazy. Makes sense since there is no weight on the play reel so it's at maximum wobblyness. REW looks ok, and I bet it's because theres the full weight on the play reel at that point.

If it's the tire, that would be bad news. At least if I can fully define the issue, I can then work on a solution.

 

[Pure_Brew]

Took out the transport with help from the service manual.[attachment=2:2yv0yeva]IMG_0247.JPG[/attachment:2yv0yeva]
There is only 4 screws that hold the entire assembly in place. The door spring must be detached, and there are 2 molex plugs to disconnect. The wires for the heads go to a connecting block toward the back of the tape deck, just unscrew the block and set the whole assembly to the side. No need to unsolder. 4 screws hold the play motor/mount assembly in place. Once that's off, it's easy to to get at the belt and all the wheels. Careful not to bash the heads on something or stress them as they are fully exposed.
[attachment=0:2yv0yeva]IMG_0249.JPG[/attachment:2yv0yeva]

I Cleaned and lubricated everything. I replaced the capstan/flywheel belt while I was in there too.
[attachment=1:2yv0yeva]IMG_0252.JPG[/attachment:2yv0yeva]

This whole assembly was bone dry and dirty, just like the decks controls when I first started working on this.

Lessons learned:
#1 Clean thoroughly, but don't go nuts with lubricant. I got a mess on the FF/REW motor/wheel assembly. Made it so FF/REW would not work due to slippage. If possible, I think removing the FF/REW motor assembly would make things easier to get at. If you get too much lube in there you'll have to use a straight cleaner and blast it, then blast with air, rinse and repeat so to speak until its dry. You don't want to have to do that and blast a mess somewhere else.

#2 Careful with q-tip use on these wheels while they are moving, or should I say, just don't!. I got cotton stuck in the FF/REW wheel/gear and wrapped around the motor end. Had to take the whole deck apart again to fix the mess.

#3 Do a thorough head cleaning, along with the capstan and pinch roller. Clean all parts that come in contact with the cassette otherwise you will ruin a cassette(s).

Oh and I almost forgot, problem solved
(for now...)

Thanks People!
-Joe

 

[speakerman1]

This is one reason I like DDs.

Larry

 

[Elite-ist]

Joe: Thank you for the detailed servicing guideline on your Pioneer CT-F9191. The pictures, also, help to describe your service. Although, this model of Pioneer doesn't rank spec-wise as well as the later Pioneer models, for some uncanny reason it can yield a great recording and playback with the right tape. I swapped the Pioneer CT-F1250 out of my present system favoring my CT-F1000 because of that. It has to do with the uncomplicated tape transport and the circuitry. We all like to chase the best spec numbers when buying a deck, but sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised by a sleeper, and the CT-F9191 is one of them.

Nando.

 

[speakerman1]

I do like the looks of open bays.

Larry

 

[Pure_Brew]

Thanks guys. Yeah I have to agree with all the comments. When I got this deck my only thought was wow this looks like my dads receiver, and I picked it up. I never chased after a deck of quality as I had personally discarded tapes years ago.

However this has been interesting, and I have never heard tapes sounding this good before-ever. The Chome tape I was testing with headphones I would have mistaken for CD if I didn't know better or do and A/B.

One can easily see as Larry has mentioned is that DD is probably the only way to go, or to chase after. This was a real bear to work on and this will likely not last.

And, I have to agree those open bays are awesome looking. What is the black one? It makes me think, if Mark Levinson ever made a deck it would look like that. Wowza.
I dunno, maybe I'll get a different deck some day but I have other priorities. But that's today, and tomorrow is a different day!