AC Filtration

speakerman1

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#1
Well I asked a friend today if we could design a passive AC filter. I was told it would be like reinventing the wheel. There is some discussion going on at some other sites that he will find. I wonder if it can be done. My thinking is why use something AC to filter AC. Well I guess we will see how big a problem it will be to do it. LOL
 

Pure_Brew

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#2
My thoughts are this. Deliver a clean sine wave. There must be regenerators that do this, but at cost. The kind of issues that can cause a toroid to buzz I'm told are caused at the zero crossing of the sine wave. Often described as a DC component in the AC. I already have one of those kinds of "filters", and it does actually work, and I don't believe it exists as something built into any surge protector/filter. There may be some amplifiers that have it built in, like Bryston, which a schematic I once had a peak at.

I think filters are only going to take things so far, since you are filtering other components from the AC, but the AC signal alone could be pretty distorted itself. I've read that the problem is getting worse as power company load types are changing from things like flourecent light bulbs and other things that were not as common place. This is just from my reading, I do quite a bit when trouble starts. There does seem to be many many issues tied to ground, but the power lines are not something I can mess with.

For me finding something that would fix my AC problems would be great, which might just be a good electrician. However I'm willing to explore a "plug in" solution. Cost for me is always a concern.
 
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Pure_Brew

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#5
You'd have to shape the waveform passively. If that's possible, then I'm guessing you would loose power. What does the line balancing achieve, for example.
 

Pure_Brew

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#7
I think Joe was talking about it. Usually involves some sort of huge transformer. I'm talking AC not balanced line interconnects. I believe he uses one but I'm not sure what it accomplishes.
 

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#8
What is your goal Larry with the line filtering?

Preventing noise from the public utility into your equipment?

What class of equipment, the low power type or high power amps?

We should discuss what you are experiencing and what you want to accomplish before jumping in.
 

Pure_Brew

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#9
I started crabbing about intermittent mechanical noise problems to Larry this morning and he was doing some poking around for me. I would also be very interested in your insights. To start with I'm in an 3 tenant apartment building that's been worked over and over for likely 150 years. Whether I use a 60 x 2 tube amp, pioneer SX-1280, or a 200wpc power amp, the transformers at times will buzz very loudly. The pioneer toroid is probably the quietest, but when this phenomena occurs, it will buzz through the speakers. The Belken PF-60 has some filtration, but it too will buzz from inside when this is going on.

I tried to isolate everything the best I could, hit all the breakers, plug in direct bypassing the Belkin and all components. Nothing helps. Mysteriously it comes and goes, could be from the neighbor.

I'm not trying to steal this thread but I was thinking that the issue at hand was about me lol.
 

speakerman1

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#10
I guess the 1st part would be to get the cleanest AC to your gear. I have no noise. It is other people. I can crank my things and not hear anything.
 

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#12
You may be getting it from your neighbors when they switch things on and off. A.C. units, fridge or any kind of motors. I would monitor the voltages
 

Pure_Brew

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#13
I never see a real Change in voltage unless I run something in the house, like my microwave. What if it is from the neighbors or something else in the building? What would be the solution... all kidding aside lol.

an isolation transformer?
 

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#14
Joe have you monitored the AC waveform with a scope when you are getting this buzzing in your equipment? If not, I think you should. Very poor power factor equipment running elsewhere in your building or locally on the grid could be causing low frequency distortion of the AC waveform. When it occurs, does it happen for a period of time long enough to get a scope on it and measure it?
 

Pure_Brew

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hi Joe. I wanted to check it with a scope, even though mine is pretty old it should be able to see relative changes and take a snapshot with my camera. This would be a good reason to get a isolation transformer wouldn't it? For safety of testing? Suggestion there would be helpful. Thanks.

The issue surely lasts for hours so I should be able to score a reading.
 

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#16
Hi Joe
Yes but be careful when measuring AC line stuff since most scopes have grounded chassis you run into the potential of shorting the hot line to the safety ground of the scope. If it is low frequency stuff you should be able to safely measure it by plugging in an AC stepdown transformer to the line (like a 120VAC primary and 12.6VAC secondary, which are quite common) and using the scope across the secondary, which will then be isolated. Safety first please. The stepdown ratio is not all that critical as you are just looking for relative distortion of the sine wave. For you to hear it in the transformer, I am suspecting the distortion is pretty severe.
 

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#17
That's right Joe, you have the old Heathkit that is pictured in your avatar. If your AC line only looked as clean as your avatar :)
 

Pure_Brew

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#18
Yes indeed. Thats the 1v p2p output from the scope itself. lll grab a AC/AC wall wart from radio shack and check this business out.

been wondering if I'd ever find a use for this old scope lol.
 

speakerman1

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#19
Finding intermittent problems isn't fun. I would call the electric company and tell them what is happening. Tell them you are worried that it may cause damage to your appliances. When it is making noise does the voltage drop? Does any thing fluctuate? It may cut down on the longevity of the life of your components.
 

speakerman1

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#20
As you can tell I hate noise. So if it is EMF, RF, or just AC noise. I would like to find a stop gap measure to cut it way down. The SP12 will be a test bed sort of. LOL I don't know how I would measure it though. Would lead work as a barrier for any of the noise?
 
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