Dual-500 king of the Castle

NeverSatisfied

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That is some kind of NICE. I am sold on the soft start, especially since I've wanted to improve upon the amount of capacitance inside my own D500 way back when I was still listening to it as an essential part of my daily personal decompression chamber. (!)

(OPTIONAL READING)

Although it was fun to show the lights dimming in time to the music during demos, I knew that in order for that to occur the +/- DC rails feeding the output stage were sagging hard enough that this was being reflected back through the full-wave-bridge > output winding of the transformer > input winding > power cord > dedicated AC circuit > other circuit(s) on the circuit breaker panel > circuit with the pulsating lights on it > incandescent bulb filaments?

OK, you may be thinking at this point that I'm tilting at windmills, but thanks to a confluence between the need to sell a house in NH and the radon dudes standing in my way, I have learned the difference between eliminate vs mitigate. (As in "Hey, we are going to scare everyone involved in this transaction silly...and then we're going to tell you that we can't 100% fix the problem...but we can take your money and make it less bad...and you will then be happy -- or something to that effect. (I don't remember exactly, for it was a long time ago & I've blocked it out of my mind. :0)

...but I digress. My previous best decompression chamber involved a single D500 & 2 speakers, and everything seemed to be a pretty good match -- the lights would be dimming in time to the music while both dual-voice coil woofers were pretty close to bottoming out...and this was accomplished with a single pair of 10,000 ufd/120v caps originally installed back in Lynwood, WA back in the late '70s?

So, circling back to the mitigation thing, for literally years I've been wondering how much added capacitance it would take in order for me to reach the physical limitations of my speakers *without* causing the lights to dim? And would this amount fit inside my D500? And would this new added capacitance cause my D500 to start even harder than it already does? (ie: the entire {stock} amp would 'kick buzz/groan' at the start due to inrush current through the transformer -- enough so that I was already concerned about shortening the lifespan of the full-wave bridge?)

NOTE: I've run many different sets of loudspeakers on my D500; mostly friends who wanted to hear if their speakers would sound different on a bigger amp. (A: Yes. Always. Even at the same sound pressure levels they enjoyed with their stock amp -- almost always they would mention something to the effect of 'more ease' as the music went from ebb to flow. And they would leave bittersweet: both happy {that their speakers could sound even better} ...and sad. {because now they now got to walk around with the newfound hunger for more power.} :0) FWIW, I always put them behind the wheel & let *them* run the volume control during these listening tests.)

Anyway, one thing I did notice during these listening sessions was that the lights never dimmed when the other speaker/other owner combo were testing the limits of the D500 <> their speaker setup. And as a matter of fact I never really saw the lights dim when I was originally running the pair of ESS Amt-1b speakers.

So I would reconnect my QLS-1s, and right away the lights were back to flickering in time to the beat of the music. (at demo volume levels.)

YET ANOTHER NOTE: Lest you think that I am some sort of 'Big-Fi' masochist, (see this list, particularly #7 :0) I'm actually just a huge lover of Music, Life Sized, Type 1, each. Actually, I knew my system was really starting to 'gel' when non-audiophile friends/spouses started to hear the difference. And the best compliment I ever got on the system towards the end of the original run was when an non-audiophile person said, "Your stereo doesn't get louder, it just gets bigger."

Exactly my goal.

****

OK, enough of the music blah blah blah. Back to the good stuff: volts/watts/ufd/etc. :0)

Since Glenn has proven in the real world that his pair of 35,000ufd caps + 50A full-wave bridge works, and works well, I'm going to head down his path. And by dedicating 1 amp to each speaker I will get the improved stereo separation by having each amp's power supply only dealing with 'only left' or 'only right' channel info. (Similar to Gepetto's stock vs. dual-mono control boards.) In other words, a potential win for improved imaging/depth of soundstage at low/moderate {ie: normal} listening levels. But at the other extreme, using 2 amps will be of benefit, for now I will now have (twin) 35,000ufd worth of local +/- 120Vdc storage available for each QLS-1.

IMHO, this compares quite favorably with my old setup of both QLS-1s, where both speakers 'shared' a single set of {twin} 10,000ufd caps. Back of the napkin math says that this new approach is ~7x more local DC storage, big picture-wise. Who knows? Maybe I won't be able to eliminate the lights dimming during big musical transients...but I will be able to mitigate it.

Man, just contemplating all this makes me feel like that radon dude, right down to his grinning like a Cheshire cat during that whole radon mexican standoff thing way back when. :0)

As a final thought, Music can actually be Too Loud. (Think mainstream 'music' with little/no dynamic range, VU meters pinned at max, unmoving.)

But it can't be Too punchy, Too much swing, Too emotive, Too exciting, Too involving...or Too Big. :0)

*** (End of OPTIONAL READING section) ***

Nice job, Glenn! I'll have 2, please...with the Soft Start, on the side. :0)
Just curious about your experience with room size?
To me big speakers only sound marginally better in a small room than small speakers in a small room. Meaning that to me, if you want big sound (larger not louder), you need large drivers in a large room. When I first got my Betas, I had to set them up in my master bedroom (18d X16w X10h), pretty large room and they sounded very nice. After moving them to main living room (22d X 26w X14h) they sounded even better, not louder but bigger. It is difficult to describe the difference between big sound and loud sound but once you have experienced it, you know it. Obviously there are many other factors, room shape, reflections, hard and soft surfaces, on and on but to get the most out of big speakers you really need a big room IMO.
 

NeverSatisfied

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Length of Sound Waves & Wavelengths In Our Rooms – Acoustic Fields

This is good.

Also note room treatments (such as a bed in the Master), can attenuate frequencies...
Absolutely and….or but….driver size does matter. An 8 inch driver can produce 20hz but the pressure ( maybe energy is a better word) of its wave at 25 feet is lower than a 12 inch driver fed the same frequency at the same amplitude (power).
Then there are driver efficiencies that make head to head comparisons pretty tough but I think most would agree that big speakers need big rooms. Interestingly I have never seen speaker manufacturers or audio publications offer selections based on the end users room size, something like “ for approximately 200 sf our model X performs excellently but for 400 sf our model Y is the better choice “.
Maybe they do/have but I haven’t seen it.
 

laatsch55

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I have a saw and hammer you can borrow, lol.
If I plaster myself against the wall opposite the speak corners about 6' off the ground it's about dialed in, could really use another 2 feet. That's why I bought the Ohm F's....they throw soundstage all over the place..
 
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Just curious about your experience with room size?
To me big speakers only sound marginally better in a small room than small speakers in a small room. Meaning that to me, if you want big sound (larger not louder), you need large drivers in a large room. When I first got my Betas, I had to set them up in my master bedroom (18d X16w X10h), pretty large room and they sounded very nice. After moving them to main living room (22d X 26w X14h) they sounded even better, not louder but bigger. It is difficult to describe the difference between big sound and loud sound but once you have experienced it, you know it. Obviously there are many other factors, room shape, reflections, hard and soft surfaces, on and on but to get the most out of big speakers you really need a big room IMO.
NeverSatisfied,

My past experience agrees with yours regarding large rooms for 'big sound' -- we're on the same page!

****

The interaction between "the sound of the system" AND "the sound of the room" gets pretty complicated/abstract quickly. (and not to mention that this is an area where I'm just starting to comprehend it for myself...but at the same time not well enough that I can really explain it cogently!)

...But then again this is exactly the kind of problem solving that a forum like this is perfect for. So let's start with the first variable (sound of system) & go from there.

1) Despite the fact that we all share the same goal (ie: true fidelity of recreated music/sound) ...it's a foregone conclusion that any 10 of our systems, picked at random, when compared side by side to each other, will demonstrate 10 different/unique sonic signatures. Some might be pretty close to each other sonically despite dissimilar componentry, but each sound system will have it's own self-identifying strengths & weaknesses.

Assuming a wide-enough frequency response to satisfy a particular listener, the next 2 things to focus on is the upper & lower limits that together define the system's dynamic range. Is the '1st watt' as clean & musically gratifying as we would need in order for the system to be able to play for hours on end (part of the solution) without ear fatigue and/or the desire to shut the system off? (part of the problem)

And at the loud side of things, does the overall amp/speaker combo have enough headroom to generate the desired SPL (Sound Pressure Level) without compressing/hardening/distorting during the peak levels?

And finally, when the system is idling between songs, how much attention (if any) does it draw to itself with spurious (amusical) sounds, to include hum & hiss emanating from the speakers, cooling fan(s), transformer buzz from the amp, etc?

****

2) The sound of the room? Just like the 10 audio systems above, 10 different rooms picked at random will possess 10 different sounds when stimulated by the clap of hands, the human voice, or music energy from your sound system. The primary variables will be the overall size & shape, but the materials/build quality of the walls/floor/ceiling will further modify the interaction of these reflective surfaces with the sonic energy we are going to stimulate the room with. (I'll elaborate more with personal experiences on this in a follow-on post.)

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to assume that you already followed J!m's link above and/or possess a working familiarity with the physical length(s) of various audio frequencies. I think that the concept of frequency response at different points in a room being audibly different due to pressure nodes (& anti-nodes) is intuitive. And that these pressure nodes/anti-nodes for different musical notes will be in different locations in this same room due to the differing wavelengths is also not a stretch of the imagination.

The good thing about the previous paragraph? To explore this facet of how your sound system is stimulating these nodes in your room, all it takes is this old Stereophile CD. (NOTE: This site has 10 used copies of this CD available for $8.00 & up + shipping, whereas some Amazon & eBay sellers
are gouging for this out-of-print test CD.)

For what it's worth, I took a photo of the track listing on the back. For the purposes of this discussion, tracks #20-31 are test tones that you can use to help quantify what you have to work with in terms of (net) bass frequency response after your system and the room it's in interact with each other.

(Of course, the test gear guidos in here can connect up their signal generators and/or PC test programs & sweep to their heart's content. :0)

Stereophile Test CD back cover.JPG

For what it's worth. My own personal experience was that once I experimented with this CD I had a much better understanding of how my system was stimulating the room...and it also helped me to better understand the loudspeaker reviews in the various audio magazines...
 
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NeverSatisfied

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I agree 100%….and I have chased “the right sound” for decades, only to realize that I can only get close. More than any component the speaker is the most varied and colored part of the system, next….the room. The differences in amps and front end components is minuscule in comparison. Having the luxury of owning so many different types of speakers has given me the opportunity to do lots of A/B comparisons in the same rooms and it is fun to see how one set of speakers perform differently in the same position as a different set. At one point I had so many pieces of blue painters tape on the floor that I had to draw a diagram for each setup (which I have miss placed). Each set of speakers has an optimum placement and that doesn’t seem to change regardless of what front end I am using. Several systems have been with me in several different houses and for example my B&W’s have a sweet sounding upper end that stays pretty consistent from room to room, the bottom end changes rather drastically, even when I have optimized their positions. As I write this I am laying on the couch at least 5 feet from the sweet spot with some Zeppelin playing and it sounds really good, not listening to the system, just the music right now. Good speakers all share similar traits but are also slaves to their rooms, getting them both right is the real challenge. 0A591540-3587-46E2-AEFF-DAB4917B00EE.jpeg
 
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You ever see this book D3? 400 pages of acoustic revelations..
Negative, Lee...not until you just shared it with me.

Good news - this hole in my audio library has just been resolved for a fair price! (See attached)

Sound Reinforcement Handbook ordered.jpg

So often the unnecessary complications from all this technology sux my will to live -- but not tonight!

Nothing like having the world's largest used bookstore at your fingertips! THANKS for the tip about this book!

Sincerely,

3D
 
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laatsch55

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Davis...that book is an eye opener....found mine in a BARN full of audio equipment of a guy that went to prison and his wife was saying just get the shit outta here...15 miles west of Gillette in the boonies...
 

laatsch55

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I agree 100%….and I have chased “the right sound” for decades, only to realize that I can only get close. More than any component the speaker is the most varied and colored part of the system, next….the room. The differences in amps and front end components is minuscule in comparison. Having the luxury of owning so many different types of speakers has given me the opportunity to do lots of A/B comparisons in the same rooms and it is fun to see how one set of speakers perform differently in the same position as a different set. At one point I had so many pieces of blue painters tape on the floor that I had to draw a diagram for each setup (which I have miss placed). Each set of speakers has an optimum placement and that doesn’t seem to change regardless of what front end I am using. Several systems have been with me in several different houses and for example my B&W’s have a sweet sounding upper end that stays pretty consistent from room to room, the bottom end changes rather drastically, even when I have optimized their positions. As I write this I am laying on the couch at least 5 feet from the sweet spot with some Zeppelin playing and it sounds really good, not listening to the system, just the music right now. Good speakers all share similar traits but are also slaves to their rooms, getting them both right is the real challenge. View attachment 59474
Amen Spence...
 
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