A Little Help From My Friends

mlucitt

Veteran and General Yakker
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Jun 24, 2011
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Location
Jacksonville, FL
#1
I have a customer's PL700B with a real head scratcher. I am looking to the group to help me figure this one out. I thought I had seen everything.

I don't know if the amplifier ever worked previously. It already had WOA Capacitors and a WOA Blue Meter Illumination LED Board installed.
I replaced the original control board with a known good (bench amplifier tested) WOA Rev G1 Control Board.
At the same time, I sourced all new Onsemi MJ21196G NPN Output Transistors with new Bergquist Sil-Pads. The four RCA Driver Transistors tested good on my Sencore TF-151A Transistor Tester, so they would be re-used.

Bias came into spec at 350mV. All fuses stayed intact at initial Bring Up using a DBT and a Variac with only the RCA Drivers installed (kind of Class A operation)
Using a CD as a musical source, the Left and Right Channels were as clear as a bell. Of course, at a very reduced input level and Level control knob position.
I installed all 20 Output Transistors.

The Left Channel was Loud and Clear. However the Right Channel was severely distorted. I suspected a bad Output Transistor because no fuses were blown.
But this distortion was unlike anything I had ever experienced. At low levels (Level control knob positions), the audio was fine. Turning the knob slightly clockwise, the DBT would go full bright (SHORT), the Meter Lights would dim, and the crackling sound output was almost like it was being turned on and off rapidly at a high level of static.

Here is the weird part. I spent a day trying various troubleshooting methods. In the end, this is what I found out: With three (from the top- 1, 2, and 4) of the Output Transistors in the far right column (next to the input/output panel), removed - the amplifier behaved normally, both channels loud and clear. No bright DBT, no hum, and no distortion.
I have checked for proper rail voltages for these Output Transistors and all the others. I have checked for shorts to the chassis and shorts between Output Transistor pins.
All the current sensing .33 and .27 Ohm resistors check good. The two 1N4004 Flyback Diodes check good. The 150 Ohm and 10 Ohm Bias resistors are good.

I have ruled out the Power Supply and everything on the Left Channel. I have ruled out the Control Board, I even tried another known good Control Board, same results. I have ruled out the Level Control because with the three Output Transistors removed, it functions perfectly.

Clearly, I have an over-current situation when the full column of negative rail Output Transistors. My next course of action is to replace D15, the Flyback Diode. I suppose it could be breaking down under a load.

I am open to suggestions. Maybe I missed something?
 

mlucitt

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#6
The symptoms are more visible in a video. I took a 15 second video and it is 20MB. I don't know how to post a file that large. I cannot even get it off my Android phone.
Help!
 
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mlucitt

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Jacksonville, FL
#9
The oscillations would be at 2 or 3 Hz, too slow to see. It is more like a power rail fluctuation caused by a short that then opens up and the cycle starts again. Not enough to blow any fuses, but enough to dim the Meter LEDs.

Putting the rails on a meter shows the +85VDC and -85VDC (with a DBT) both get pulled down to around 65-70VDC momentarily.
 

MarkWComer

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Nov 1, 2014
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Gaston, SC
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Victim of the record bug since age five
#10
The symptoms are more visible in a video. I took a 15 second video and it is 20MB. I don't know how to post a file that large. I cannot even get it off my Android phone.
Help!
In those cases, I upload to YT as an “unlisted” video and then post a link, delete shortly afterward.
 

wattsabundant

Chief Journeyman
Joined
Apr 26, 2011
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932
Location
Central Ohio
#11
Well the bulb is going to flash if you're playing music. The problem would seem to be with the sockets of the two outputs that you pulled to make it work.

1. What's the waveform look like at 100 Hz, 1khz and then around 10 Khz.

2. Do the load share test with only 1,2 & 4 installed and then with all installed.

3. Reduce line voltage to 80 volts or so with all outputs installed.

4. Pinched sil pad
 

Gibsonian

Chief Journeyman
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
809
#12
I had a 700 with the old original style sockets and there was a wire or something that made just enough contact to cause distortion. I'd look there for something that is just barely touching. Pulled my hair out until I found it. Bent the solid core wire to remove the contact and problem solved. The pic is in a thread here somewhere.
 

mlucitt

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Jacksonville, FL
#13
I found the cause of the issue by "Easter Egging" or changing random things until something makes the symptoms change.
I replaced the DC Protection Board with another PL700B one and the problem was gone - GONE!
So I figured out that was the cause of the problem, but not so fast. The new DC Protection Board did not have the Zobel Network installed.
So I installed the (2) 5.1 Ohm Resistors and (2) 0.1uF/100V capacitors and reinstalled the new DC Protection Board - the problem came back!!!

Again I had the DC Power "Motorboating" issue with the flashing DBT.
I tried Don's suggestions but I could not get the amp to run at anything but minimal input levels.

So, I installed a third DC Protection Board with the Zobel Network not installed, and the amplifier performed beautifully.

Go figure. Anyone want to explain that?

Again, Left Channel perfect. Right Channel got NOS Driver Transistors and Sil-Pads, new MJ21196G Output Transistors and Sil-Pads, new Main Power Supply Capacitors, new Bridge Rectifier, (2) new Backplane 1N4004 Diodes, (2) new Bias Transistors, (2) new Bias resistors, new WOA Rev G1 Control Board, new Current Sharing resistors.
I also rewired the meters to run directly from the DC Protection Board, Grounded the Control Board, WOA Meter LED Board, and DC Protection Board to STAR Ground. And, cut the Ground bus wire from the Black Speaker Binding Posts to the Input Ground Plate.
 

gene french

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guayabo de bagaces, guanacaste, costa rica....
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music...the healer of souls...
#14
I found the cause of the issue by "Easter Egging" or changing random things until something makes the symptoms change.
I replaced the DC Protection Board with another PL700B one and the problem was gone - GONE!
So I figured out that was the cause of the problem, but not so fast. The new DC Protection Board did not have the Zobel Network installed.
So I installed the (2) 5.1 Ohm Resistors and (2) 0.1uF/100V capacitors and reinstalled the new DC Protection Board - the problem came back!!!

Again I had the DC Power "Motorboating" issue with the flashing DBT.
I tried Don's suggestions but I could not get the amp to run at anything but minimal input levels.

So, I installed a third DC Protection Board with the Zobel Network not installed, and the amplifier performed beautifully.

Go figure. Anyone want to explain that?

Again, Left Channel perfect. Right Channel got NOS Driver Transistors and Sil-Pads, new MJ21196G Output Transistors and Sil-Pads, new Main Power Supply Capacitors, new Bridge Rectifier, (2) new Backplane 1N4004 Diodes, (2) new Bias Transistors, (2) new Bias resistors, new WOA Rev G1 Control Board, new Current Sharing resistors.
I also rewired the meters to run directly from the DC Protection Board, Grounded the Control Board, WOA Meter LED Board, and DC Protection Board to STAR Ground. And, cut the Ground bus wire from the Black Speaker Binding Posts to the Input Ground Plate.
gremlins....
 

mlucitt

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Jacksonville, FL
#16
First, I must say that the DC Protection Boards were assembled by me and not Don Imlay. The only test equipment connected to the PL700B was a handheld Fluke 77.
The strangest thing to me was that Left Channel was perfect the whole time.
 

Hexis22

Chief Journeyman
Joined
Dec 28, 2022
Messages
680
Location
Wisconsin
#17
Did you find an anomaly with DCP boards, or did this end up a unique interaction between the point to point backplane and DCP?

The number of unique assembly issues observed when gutting all the original point to point components on past upgrades is staggering.

I’ve given up upgrading customer amps without WO backplane boards.
 

wattsabundant

Chief Journeyman
Joined
Apr 26, 2011
Messages
932
Location
Central Ohio
#20
First, I must say that the DC Protection Boards were assembled by me and not Don Imlay. The only test equipment connected to the PL700B was a handheld Fluke 77.
The strangest thing to me was that Left Channel was perfect the whole time.
I set up 2 meters and a signal generator to indirectly measure the impedance of the zobels at several frequencies. I measured the current through the input of each channel. The following settings were used:

Frequency: 20, 100, 1k, 10k, 20k.
Source Voltage 2.0 volts
Measured A Current (AC Current is a redundant statement. Sound it out)
Instruments: Loftech TS-1 oscillator, Fluke 87, Fluke 87V, Vici micro ohm meter,


Frequency. L. Ch. R. CH .

20 Hz, 24 uA, 24 uA

100HZ, 119 uA, 119 uA

1K Hz, 1.17 mA, 1.21 mA

10K Hz, 11.8 m, 11.7 mA

20k Hz, 24.1 mA, 23.3 mA

Note: after I initially posted this I edited it several times as the formatting was a mess. At least it looks good in edit mode. Resistors measure 5.1 ohm, L. Ch cap .092 uf, Rt Ch .095 uf.

Mark, you could do the same thing and compare the results. Note that the board does not need to be installed to do this. just inject the signal at the L or R channel. All this does is verify the zobels are functioning.

A note on the instruments. The Flukes have not been calibrated since date of purchase. I have no reason to believe they are out of cal. The Vici micro ohmmeter is $100 or so on Amazon. I really like this instrument and it seems to be accurate.
 

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