Question for Ed...

88Z52

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#1
Can someone tell me why.....

Between the VU meters on a PL 700B, Some of them say "Laboratory Standard Amplifier" and some of them say "700 Watts R.M.S."

Is there any difference in the amps and does anyone know why this was done?

Thanks in advance!
 

laatsch55

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#2
IIRC, Ed and I talked about that one day and it had something to do with the FTC, But I'll let him answer that one...
 

oldphaser

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#3
Can someone tell me why.....

Between the VU meters on a PL 700B, Some of them say "Laboratory Standard Amplifier" and some of them say "700 Watts R.M.S."

Is there any difference in the amps and does anyone know why this was done?

Thanks in advance!
This was as a result of what is commonly referred to as the FTC "amplifier rule" ("Power Output Claims for Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products"). I spoke at length with A.P. Van Meter about this a number of years ago.

The "amplifier rule" came out May 3, 1974 and took effect 6 months later in November 1974. Although I could not locate the exact verbiage in this document, A.P. told me that the FTC did not like amplifier manufacturers to use the model number to imply the power output of their amplifiers. As an example, a Phase Linear model 400 was 200 watts per channel. They also did not like them using the words "Four Hundred Watts RMS" on the front panel. Likewise for the 700, the words "Seven Hundred Watts R.M.S" appeared on the 700B front panel. That all changed in November 1974. The wording changed to "Laboratory Standard Amplifier" and the power rating was 201 watts per channel for the 400 and 345 watts per channel for the 700B. I also heard that Crown did not like Phase Linear using the words "Laboratory Standard Amplifier" since their amplifier used the words "Audio Standard Amplifier".

A few other things changed in the November 1974 time frame. As some of you may have also noticed, the Phase Linear 400 added an additional heat-sink. (NOTE: This was in an effort to meet the 1/3rd power spec requirement). The knobs on 700B were no longer solid aluminum machined knobs and were replaced with plastic insert knobs. The 700B Arrow Hart power switch was replaced with a cam operated micro switch which took (from what I heard) 6 months to design.

By the way, if my memory serves me correct the FTC opened up the spec to public comment sometime in the 2000's and they reduced the 1/3rd power spec to 1/8th power (which reduces the heat by approximately 30%. Again if my memory serves me correct). This 1/8th power spec is commonly referred to as the Sony spec which is the spec Sony used. I believe the information may still be out there on the internet about the public comments made in the late 2000's. I will check into it at a later time and try to remember to provide some follow up on the subject.

Please read the attached spec and pay particular attention to section 3.c and 3.e

NOTE: I shared the A.P. story with Bob today and he had some interesting comments about the FTC as well.

There is a lot more to the story that needs to be told but I am exhausted from a very long day. A lot of it has to do with the 1/3rd power spec. I will get to it a little later. Stay tuned!
 

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88Z52

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#5
Interesting information I could not find anywhere else. Thank you Oldphaser! :thumbright:
 

oldphaser

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#6
This was as a result of what is commonly referred to as the FTC "amplifier rule" ("Power Output Claims for Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products"). I spoke at length with A.P. Van Meter about this a number of years ago.

The "amplifier rule" came out May 3, 1974 and took effect 6 months later in November 1974. Although I could not locate the exact verbiage in this document, A.P. told me that the FTC did not like amplifier manufacturers to use the model number to imply the power output of their amplifiers. As an example, a Phase Linear model 400 was 200 watts per channel. They also did not like them using the words "Four Hundred Watts RMS" on the front panel. Likewise for the 700, the words "Seven Hundred Watts R.M.S" appeared on the 700B front panel. That all changed in November 1974. The wording changed to "Laboratory Standard Amplifier" and the power rating was 201 watts per channel for the 400 and 345 watts per channel for the 700B. I also heard that Crown did not like Phase Linear using the words "Laboratory Standard Amplifier" since their amplifier used the words "Audio Standard Amplifier".

A few other things changed in the November 1974 time frame. As some of you may have also noticed, the Phase Linear 400 added an additional heat-sink. (NOTE: This was in an effort to meet the 1/3rd power spec requirement). The knobs on 700B were no longer solid aluminum machined knobs and were replaced with plastic insert knobs. The 700B Arrow Hart power switch was replaced with a cam operated micro switch which took (from what I heard) 6 months to design.

By the way, if my memory serves me correct the FTC opened up the spec to public comment sometime in the 2000's and they reduced the 1/3rd power spec to 1/8th power (which reduces the heat by approximately 30%. Again if my memory serves me correct). This 1/8th power spec is commonly referred to as the Sony spec which is the spec Sony used. I believe the information may still be out there on the internet about the public comments made in the late 2000's. I will check into it at a later time and try to remember to provide some follow up on the subject.

Please read the attached spec and pay particular attention to section 3.c and 3.e

NOTE: I shared the A.P. story with Bob today and he had some interesting comments about the FTC as well.

There is a lot more to the story that needs to be told but I am exhausted from a very long day. A lot of it has to do with the 1/3rd power spec. I will get to it a little later. Stay tuned!
I just obtained the following graph from Dean which illustrates the "Power Dissipated (Heat) As % of Amplifier Max Rated Output". From this it would appear that amplifiers run hottest somewhere near 40% (a little more than 1/3rd power).
 

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oldphaser

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#7
"FTC Amp Power Rating" (Audio Magazine February 1975)

Here is a follow up to my my earlier postings concerning the FTC "Amplifier Rule".
Here is a copy of Audio Magazine February 1975.

Compliments of http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1975-02.pdf


"FTC Wattage Ratings":

22 An Optimistic View/Brian Wachner BGW

30 An Alternative View/Robert Tucker Dynaco

34 Transient IM Distortion/W. Marshall Leach Georgia Tech Professor

42 Power FETs/Bascom H. King

NOTE: Some pages appear to be missing in the articles above.


By the way, you may also have noticed that on the cover of this issue is the Phase Linear PL14 pc board used in early Phase Linear 700B's.



You may also consider "How Valid is The FTC Preconditioning Rule" http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1975-09.pdf see page 30.

Ed
 

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oldphaser

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#10
By Request From Lee (Here are some pictures of Ed) First Photo

Here is a photo of me circa 1979-1981 at my friend/partner Greg's West Seattle location. I later moved into a storefront location in the Ballard area of Seattle. (NOTE: The photo in the foreground is of a modified Yamaha PM1000 16 x 4 mixing console with 16 direct outs). I eventually traded a Jaguar XJ6 to Greg for this console.
 

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oldphaser

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#11
By Request From Lee (Here are some pictures of Ed) Second Photo

Here is a photo of me circa 1979-1981 at my friend/partner Greg's West Seattle location. I later moved into a storefront location in the Ballard area of Seattle. (Scully 284-8 1" 8 track in the background.)

I lusted after a 16 track 2" machine. So I traded the Scully along with some tube gear. I later also acquired an Ampex 1" 8 track to go along with my 3M 56 2" 16 track.
 

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oldphaser

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#12
By Request From Lee (Here are some pictures of Ed) Third Photo

Here is a photo of me taken sometime between 1979 and 1981. This is just a small part of the P.A. system (coming back from rental use) my friend designed for Heart (circa 1976 or 1977) and Randy Hansen (late 1970's). The Heart P.A. system was broken up into (4) P.A. systems used by Seattle bands; Rail, Shyanne, Crown and a band named Child I did sound for. The Randy Hansen system was capable down to below 20Hz as the drivers had a free air resonance in that region. The Randy Hansen system was later used by The Allies (they did a song Emma Peel that finished second on the basement tapes competition on MTV). The Allies later became The Brandos. Parts of that system were also used at the Backstage in the Ballard area of Seattle. The Heart system was one of the earliest line array P.A. systems ever built... all using direct-radiators. The wedges you see in the photo sitting upright were used in the Randy Hansen system. The cabinets where you see the wording "Interphase Acoustics" were used in the Heart P.A. system. By the way, the 73 Mustang Mach One is long gone.

I owned that Mustang from 1975 through approx. 1987. I had to sell it to pay off a debt I owed my friend Greg on a International U-Haul truck we acquired together from the Seattle rock band Child.

Randy Hansen was best known for doing a Jimi Hendrix tribute show. He traveled the U.S.A. with the P.A. system my friend built. Randy traveled Europe with Jimi's old backing band members from the Band of Gypsy's that included Mitch Mitchell and Buddy Miles. Randy also did a bunch of special effect guitar sounds for Francis Ford Copola's film "Apocalypse Now" movie. Today Hansen’s audience is worldwide, whether with The Randy Hansen Band or working with other entertainers. Steve Miller, Paul Rodgers (Free, Bad Company, The Firm, Queen), Buddy Miles, Don Wilson (The Ventures), Alan White (Yes, Plastic Ono Band, John Lennon), Sammy Hagar, Herbie Hancock, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Robert Cray, Roger Fisher (Heart), Bob Seger and Hendrix alumni Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell, are just a few of the many musicians he’s performed with.

I went to see Bob Carver speak at the University Towers Hotel in the Seattle area back in the early 1980's. I was sitting behind (2) guys from the U of W who were ranting and raving about how great the PA system was that they heard at The Backstage in Ballard (suburb of Seattle). I tapped them on the shoulder and told them that was part of the Randy Hansen system that my friend Greg built. How ironic is that? I ended up renting it for use in Kane and/or McMahon Hall and they charged $5 a head. Well with over 1,000 people per event they were making a lot of money. I stayed around to baby sit the system and make sure nothing got blown up. I brought along my six pack of beer every time and on one occasion the dormitory monitor said I couldn't drink. So needless to say, I took my ball (I mean my P.A. system) home and that was the end of that. I also had a (4) keg stainless steel tavern bar with dual "speed" taps I bought for my recording studio and decided one day to sell it. So I got the brilliant idea to call the Interfraternity Council of Frat houses at the U of W and (4) guys were at my house within the hour. I asked if they needed me to hook it all up for them and they said nope that the distributors would do that for them. Must have been some kick-ass frat house!

 

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oldphaser

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#13
I first met my future partner Greg in 1979 at Robert Lang Studios in Richmond Beach (part of Shoreline, WA) a suburb of Seattle, WA. Nirvana recorded their last song there. I had heard that Dave Grohl was living down the street from me in Shoreline and use to drive a go-kart on the street down to Robert's studio. Robert is a really nice guy and has worked on that studio since approximately 1973. He has poured tons and tons of concrete into the building of his studio. I believe he may even still be using some analog stuff. I think his studio may well be the largest studio in the state of Washington. You could probably easily fit the Seattle Symphony into one of his rooms.
 

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#14
Someone had asked me if my second location was on 79th street. My response is below:
601 NW 80th Street. Part of Entertainment Plus which was owned by Doug Kennelly (NOTE: Doug's step-dad was the owner of the Kennelly Keys Music stores). I didn't have any insurance at that time in my early 20's. So I was always paranoid that my stuff would get stolen. Hence, I had a hard time trusting anyone with my gear. Therefore, I must admit that not a lot of business that should have gotten done got done. Entertainment Plus was kind of like a mini Motown records but severely under-financed. Entertainment Plus had a commercial printing press, video production, my studio, management, etc. Doug eventually turned the lease he had on the building over to Paul Scoles (Ironwood Studios). Paul has since passed away. I believe it may now be Avast Recording Co. Doug had success a bit later with AV-Pro.
 

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Here is a photo of me taken sometime between 1979 and 1981. This is just a small part of the P.A. system (coming back from rental use) my friend designed for Heart (circa 1976 or 1977) and Randy Hansen (late 1970's). The Heart P.A. system was broken up into (4) P.A. systems used by Seattle bands; Rail, Shyanne, Crown and a band named Child I did sound for. The Randy Hansen system was capable down to below 20Hz as the drivers had a free air resonance in that region. The Randy Hansen system was later used by The Allies (they did a song Emma Peel that finished second on the basement tapes competition on MTV). The Allies later became The Brandos. Parts of that system were also used at the Backstage in the Ballard area of Seattle. The Heart system was one of the earliest line array P.A. systems ever built... all using direct-radiators. The wedges you see in the photo sitting upright were used in the Randy Hansen system. The cabinets where you see the wording "Interphase Acoustics" were used in the Heart P.A. system. By the way, the 73 Mustang Mach One is long gone.

I owned that Mustang from 1975 through approx. 1987. I had to sell it to pay off a debt I owed my friend Greg on a International U-Haul truck we acquired together from the Seattle rock band Child.

Randy Hansen was best known for doing a Jimi Hendrix tribute show. He traveled the U.S.A. with the P.A. system my friend built. Randy traveled Europe with Jimi's old backing band members from the Band of Gypsy's that included Mitch Mitchell and Buddy Miles. Randy also did a bunch of special effect guitar sounds for Francis Ford Copola's film "Apocalypse Now" movie. Today Hansen’s audience is worldwide, whether with The Randy Hansen Band or working with other entertainers. Steve Miller, Paul Rodgers (Free, Bad Company, The Firm, Queen), Buddy Miles, Don Wilson (The Ventures), Alan White (Yes, Plastic Ono Band, John Lennon), Sammy Hagar, Herbie Hancock, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Robert Cray, Roger Fisher (Heart), Bob Seger and Hendrix alumni Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell, are just a few of the many musicians he’s performed with.

I went to see Bob Carver speak at the University Towers Hotel in the Seattle area back in the early 1980's. I was sitting behind (2) guys from the U of W who were ranting and raving about how great the PA system was that they heard at The Backstage in Ballard (suburb of Seattle). I tapped them on the shoulder and told them that was part of the Randy Hansen system that my friend Greg built. How ironic is that? I ended up renting it for use in Kane and/or McMahon Hall and they charged $5 a head. Well with over 1,000 people per event they were making a lot of money. I stayed around to baby sit the system and make sure nothing got blown up. I brought along my six pack of beer every time and on one occasion the dormitory monitor said I couldn't drink. So needless to say, I took my ball (I mean my P.A. system) home and that was the end of that. I also had a (4) keg stainless steel tavern bar with dual "speed" taps I bought for my recording studio and decided one day to sell it. So I got the brilliant idea to call the Interfraternity Council of Frat houses at the U of W and (4) guys were at my house within the hour. I asked if they needed me to hook it all up for them and they said nope that the distributors would do that for them. Must have been some kick-ass frat house!


Way cool, I got to see Randy Hansen at the Bacchanal in Seattle about 20 years ago (1994 ish). Same place we saw Robin Trower. Don't know what happened to the place. Robin brought Jimmy Hendrix's dad up on stage as a special guest.
 

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#16
Way cool, I got to see Randy Hansen at the Bacchanal in Seattle about 20 years ago (1994 ish). Same place we saw Robin Trower. Don't know what happened to the place. Robin brought Jimmy Hendrix's dad up on stage as a special guest.

Got my Cities mixed, musta been in San Diego (The Bacchanal Nightclub) in the 80's. CSR baby CSR (can't remember shit). Jimmie dad and Trower were in seattle. Haveta go through my ticket stubbs I have saved for my whole life...
 

kingman

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#17
Ed, did you get my email about my series 1 700 that you had rebuilt? Never got a response:scratch:???
 

oldphaser

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#19
Ed, did you get my email about my series 1 700 that you had rebuilt? Never got a response:scratch:???
Wayne,

I received your e-mail. I wasn't exactly sure who it was at the time I opened it. I am glad to see that it was you.
I just sent you a response via e-mail.

Ed
 

oldphaser

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#20
I was doing some research on the FTC 's 1/3rd power pre-conditioning requirement from 1974 and ran across this document again.

On page 145:
"... What is the hi-fi industry doing about the new FTC rule? Some, chiefly Phase Linear, Dynaco, and Stereo Review magazine are protesting it....Still others aren't paying it much attention, either because their products have no problems with the rule or because they haven't yet grasped the fact that they have a problem."

Ed
 
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