PL 400 outputs and other nice things to look at

The Rebel

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Howdy from the deep south, US of A. I'm new to the board, so take it easy on me until I start to really screw things up. :D
Here's the front story. I just picked up a fairly nice early PL 400 for a song. Guy says one channel didn't work and one meter didn't work. He was scared of it, and obviously needed some cash, so I plucked that, and a nice 1.5t off of him for less than 2 C notes. :blob7:I went over to look at the Carver, and found the 400 in his "junk" room. We already had cranked the Carver for 15 minutes before I even thought about looking through all his other stuff and found the PL 400, so I knew the 1.5t was still in good shape. But enough about that, let's talk about this brushed aluminum faced beast with the huge VU meters.
First thing I noticed was the two output fuse caps were gone. I asked if he had them laying around his bench somewhere, and he's like, nah, that's how it was when I got it. I just laughed quietly to myself and handed him a small wad of cash as I walked to my car with the Carver, and him carrying the 400. I didn't want to act too excited about getting it, just act as if it was a pretty boat anchor or a door stop.. :p

So after getting it home, I popped the covers and gave it a good once over and saw nothing burned or out of place so I proceeded. After locating and installing two fuse caps with a couple AGX5 fuses in them, I brought it up using my Variac until I was at 100%. I knew it powered up when I heard the transformer humming. Hummph, I've read about this humming, but never got to the end of what is causing it. That's when I checked DC offset. one channel was -5.9mV, and the other was a bit less, around -9.4mV, can't remember exactly. So I decided to take a chance on hooking it to some test speakers on my bench. After I got it hooked to my C-1 preamp, and the speakers, I didn't hear the hum as loud so I turned the volume up slowly. SOUND came out. Of one speaker. No movement at the meters. So I turned down the volume, played with the RCAs and tried again. Sound out of both speakers now. Great! One RCA input is sloppy, plan to replace those anyway with DCP board in near future. Still no meters, and no lights. But sound in both channels now, both distorted, so I turned it all off and put it back on the bench to dig into it deeper.

At this point I was pretty happy with it so far so I pulled the front, and both covers to get a better look. I found no meter lights, or even wiring for the lights, they were desoldered and left out. From looking at the wiring going to the meters, and from pics of other PL 400 meter wiring, I believe these were wired 180 out, because the wires were actually crossed from the meter board to the meters. I may be wrong about that, all this is new to me with the PL. This will be a good candidate for the LED board upgrade.

I do know it has the factory style aluminum case filter caps still in it with the mounts that screw to the side of the case. This is a 4 fin amp. I popped the covers off of the outputs/drivers and all 16 are Motorola MJ15022 transistors. Is that right? I was expecting to see 14 15024s and 2 of another # here for drivers. They appear to have been replaced from the word MEXICO stamped on them. lol

Now that I'm asking for technical advice on this amp, can I get an idea of why the transformer has a loud hum to it when not hooked to a source, what I can do to settle that, and possibly if I need to check any or all of the transistors before I replace the large caps? What caps are easiest to replace into the factory mounts? I do plan on doing the DCP board and try to listen to this amp before I decide to go all out and start a WO conversion on it. Can I get a little help on what the minimum I should do to give it a few good runs before I make a decision? Thanks for allowing a greenie into your group of excellent techs. I'm not a tech, but I have a few tools, a decent multimeter, a variac, a Weller soldering station, and a decent desoldering gun similar to the Hakko FR300 that works well for me so far. I can solder and pull and replace parts without burning boards(yet). I have the service manual and have gone over the bulletins. I think of myself taking instruction fairly well, but I can prolly be as hard headed as the next guy at times. Thanks again.
 

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laatsch55

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#2
I believe the factory caps were 1-5/8 diameter. An 80 volt /18,000uf CD will fit right in, if ya dont mind 80 volt caps in a 80 to 84 volt environment. If ya do Joe's cap Kits are pure coolness and rated to 100 volt. In my earlier forays into learning how to fix a broken PL400 I have shoehorned some 22,000 uf/ 100 volt CD (Cornell Dubilier) caps in there...it wasnt pretty though.
The 15022's wont have the SOA ya need to romp on that 400. You'll want to go with some MJ 21196's and RCA410'S as drivers if you want to keep it quasi-comp.
 

laatsch55

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#3
Try tightening the transformer bolts to see if that does away with the hum..
 

laatsch55

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If the lights are unsoldered on the meters just bit the bullet and get one of Joe's light boards. With the newest PL 400 light board the meter response is a choice between original and faster attack/slower decay....
 

The Rebel

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If the lights are unsoldered on the meters just bit the bullet and get one of Joe's light boards. With the newest PL 400 light board the meter response is a choice between original and faster attack/slower decay....
That's the kit I am looking at. So there are parts in this kit that you can use to change the response of the meters? My PL bud tells me about doing this on his 700s, but I didn't see it mentioned on the WO listing for this kit. Cool.
 

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There are two settings on the board, accomplished with jumpers....pretty darn cool.
.
 

Bradrock

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#7
Even though the light board is labeled a ' kit' . It comes completely assembled in a shipping tube. I was expecting a bare board & components. NICE.
 

The Rebel

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Sounds good Bradrock. I'm looking at getting the blue water to go with the smoked lens on these meters. Hope it isn't too dark. What color did you use?
Lee, how do I determine whether the meters were connected properly when I pulled it apart? This is the picture of it when I opened it up. Seems like I saw a pic of another members meter wiring with the wires inverted. I'm hoping this is why the meters weren't responding.
 

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The Rebel

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I believe the factory caps were 1-5/8 diameter. An 80 volt /18,000uf CD will fit right in, if ya dont mind 80 volt caps in a 80 to 84 volt environment. If ya do Joe's cap Kits are pure coolness and rated to 100 volt. In my earlier forays into learning how to fix a broken PL400 I have shoehorned some 22,000 uf/ 100 volt CD (Cornell Dubilier) caps in there...it wasnt pretty though.
The 15022's wont have the SOA ya need to romp on that 400. You'll want to go with some MJ 21196's and RCA410'S as drivers if you want to keep it quasi-comp.
This is an Edmonds amp, from what I can tell. The factory caps are 1-3/4" x 4-1/8". I think I'm going to go with Joe's kit at 100v. Since this one may go to the extreme in it's next life I'm going to start it out right. Those 22k CD caps are fatties at 63mm, I bet those looked swole up inside the 400.
I want to test run it now with new caps, but if I plan on going full comp later, is it absolutely necessary to ditch the 15022s at this point while it's going to be quasi? How would replacing only the drivers with RCA410s work out? Or would those even make a difference used with the 22s? If the amp sounds like butt after the new caps with the 15022s, I'll go with some 21196s. I'm assuming I can use MJ21196s if I go full comp later.
 

laatsch55

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Sounds good Bradrock. I'm looking at getting the blue water to go with the smoked lens on these meters. Hope it isn't too dark. What color did you use?
Lee, how do I determine whether the meters were connected properly when I pulled it apart? This is the picture of it when I opened it up. Seems like I saw a pic of another members meter wiring with the wires inverted. I'm hoping this is why the meters weren't responding.
Plus terminal goes to the positive speaker out...trace it back..
 

laatsch55

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This is an Edmonds amp, from what I can tell. The factory caps are 1-3/4" x 4-1/8". I think I'm going to go with Joe's kit at 100v. Since this one may go to the extreme in it's next life I'm going to start it out right. Those 22k CD caps are fatties at 63mm, I bet those looked swole up inside the 400.
I want to test run it now with new caps, but if I plan on going full comp later, is it absolutely necessary to ditch the 15022s at this point while it's going to be quasi? How would replacing only the drivers with RCA410s work out? Or would those even make a difference used with the 22s? If the amp sounds like butt after the new caps with the 15022s, I'll go with some 21196s. I'm assuming I can use MJ21196s if I go full comp later.




A '22 should not be driving a '22. Oscillations are more likely if outputs are used as drivers, not inevitable, but more likely.
Yes, the '96's can be used after conversion. In full comp mode there are no 410 drivers, all 96/95 pairs.
You can certainly use the '22's, but by your list of speaks, it might be hard to keep your foot out of it!!
 

laatsch55

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This is an Edmonds amp, from what I can tell. The factory caps are 1-3/4" x 4-1/8". I think I'm going to go with Joe's kit at 100v. Since this one may go to the extreme in it's next life I'm going to start it out right. Those 22k CD caps are fatties at 63mm, I bet those looked swole up inside the 400.
I want to test run it now with new caps, but if I plan on going full comp later, is it absolutely necessary to ditch the 15022s at this point while it's going to be quasi? How would replacing only the drivers with RCA410s work out? Or would those even make a difference used with the 22s? If the amp sounds like butt after the new caps with the 15022s, I'll go with some 21196s. I'm assuming I can use MJ21196s if I go full comp later.

Correct, the factory caps were 1-3/4"....
 

jbeckva

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Sounds good Bradrock. I'm looking at getting the blue water to go with the smoked lens on these meters. Hope it isn't too dark. What color did you use?
Lee, how do I determine whether the meters were connected properly when I pulled it apart? This is the picture of it when I opened it up. Seems like I saw a pic of another members meter wiring with the wires inverted. I'm hoping this is why the meters weren't responding.
Howdy,

I'd go with the white LED's with the smoked lenses.. the blues really are a bit too dark for those. Welcome to PHX btw! :thumbright:
 

62vauxhall

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2nd that re bright white LED's behind tinted lenses. I tried blue LED's but illumination was dim and not a pleasing hue. Swapped out for bright white - all was good.

The lens tint was dark enough in my case that factory incandescents were nearly unnoticeable in a normally lit room.
 

laatsch55

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Nah, shouldn't bother em...th\e meters were a POS from the factory but were actually pretty robust. Unless you got into some expensive amps with a separate meter drive boards in a fast attack/slow decay....as in the Spec 2 (among others) the PL 400 meters is what ya got..
 

VSAT88

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2nd that re bright white LED's behind tinted lenses. I tried blue LED's but illumination was dim and not a pleasing hue. Swapped out for bright white - all was good.

The lens tint was dark enough in my case that factory incandescents were nearly unnoticeable in a normally lit room.
Third for bright white. Awesome looking. Welcome brother. From Alabama.
 

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The Rebel

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Ok, have some goodies on the way. Filter caps and meter/light board kit from WO. DCP from wattsabundant will be coming later. This amp has all MJ15022s in the outputs and driver locations. I'm thinking of picking up 4 RCA410s for drivers, and keeping the 022s in it for now. Will that make a significant difference in the way this amp performs, or will that help from a reliability standpoint? Going to do the 470uf 25v mod at C6 as per Lee. I was told to replace all the electrolytics on the control board. I'm going to post a picture of my Pl-14A board, I need someone to point out(circle in the pic) what is necessary to replace, before I order up more than I need. Thanks for all the help guys.
 

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laatsch55

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Ok, have some goodies on the way. Filter caps and meter/light board kit from WO. DCP from wattsabundant will be coming later. This amp has all MJ15022s in the outputs and driver locations. I'm thinking of picking up 4 RCA410s for drivers, and keeping the 022s in it for now. Will that make a significant difference in the way this amp performs, or will that help from a reliability standpoint? Going to do the 470uf 25v mod at C6 as per Lee. I was told to replace all the electrolytics on the control board. I'm going to post a picture of my Pl-14A board, I need someone to point out(circle in the pic) what is necessary to replace, before I order up more than I need. Thanks for all the help guys.
The other two black electro's and the other 6 blue ones. The 410's as drivers will keep oscillations at bay..
 
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