Open-Reel Tape Experiences -The Good & Bad

Elite-ist

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#1
Hi all:

Encouraging all members to share their experiences with this format. What are the tapes - NOS or new - you get the best recording results with? How about the bad tapes that exhibit poor playback and recording issues? Any tips or tricks you use when recording with open-reel format? All photos or videos related to this subject are welcome.

Nando.
 

J!m

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#2
I'll play, even though my first hand experience is a bit old now...

My Teac A3340-S was set up with and running Ampex 456 and it was really quite nice. Later, once that was sold, I picked up a Tascam 32, and set that up with Quantegy 456, which, as far as I am aware, was Quantegy purchasing/taking over tape operations from Ampex (so, the same tape, just newer). Also excellent tape (at the time). I'll have to check my stash and see how it has aged.

I know the Ampex brand tape is really bad, (sticky Shed) and suspect the Quantegy will suffer the same fate at some point.
 
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#4
This is a nice way to spend some time for us shut-ins. I must say, I never met a R2R I didn't enjoy. I've owned Teac's, Akai's, one Revox, a bunch of Pioneer's (still have one 707) and of course, my collection of Sony's. Most of the decks were set up for XL1. I had a Pioneer 1011L that ran XL1 and was probably one of the best recording decks of that group. I eventually had it switch over to LPR and it never was the same. I'm down to my Sony's now with a couple set up for LPR and the rest are still aligned for XL1. I like LPR but it will never be equal to Maxell. I'm going to have my 765 aligned for Capture 90 this year once I can get some positive info on its performance.
 

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#5
Here is a table showing the running times per side of different tape's lengths. Later on I will post some pictures and share my limited experience with Open-Reel tapes.

 
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#6
I still have a lot of Sony 150 tape on 10" & 7" reels. The 700 series decks were factory set for this tape in the 70's when this series came on the market. What's remarkable about this tape is that is still in good condition. I haven't recorded on one of these reels in years but they play back great and the tape doesn't show any evidence of curling, shedding or any other problems some brands have displayed. I still have some price tags on the 10" reels, $10.99 a reel.
 

Primare

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#7
Regarding NOS open-reel tapes I have very limited experience. Since my return to the tapes 5 years ago I bought NOS open-reels only 3 times. First purchase were 2 packs of 5"/900 ft Agfa PER 368 Professional. The strange think, for me at least, is that the outer layer is white. At the same time the recording results are OK. I started combining 2 Agfas in one 7" reel. In general I'm satisfied with the outcome.
2 years ago I bought on NOS 7" TDK AUDUA LB-1800. Yesterday I opened it and today I finished the recording. I used the calibration settings of RT909 according the manual. My ears estimate this tape a little bit lower than the new LPR which I use by default.
3 weeks ago I bought Agfa PEM 369 Professional. I tried it but I don't like to outcome. There is big difference in the levels between incoming signal and the recorded one, around 20 dB. Could be my fault with wrong calibration settings. I will try it again these days. Will experiment with all possible options for BIAS and EQ, which are 4 in total.
Otherwise I use new Pyral LPR 35. My R2Rs are adjusted to this tape. I like the results and will continue to use new LPR 35.
Being in Bulgaria it's not easy to find NOS open-reel tape on the local market. Actually is quite difficult. Best prices in the net are in USA but the transport to Bulgaria and the tax make them quite high. That's why I have such limited experience and can't recommend where to buy from. So far I avoid buying/listening used open-reel tape. I have some very old reel tapes (BASF), more than 50 years old, but they are in very poor condition. Didn't test them at all.











 

62vauxhall

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#8
I still have a lot of Sony 150 tape on 10" & 7" reels. The 700 series decks were factory set for this tape in the 70's when this series came on the market. What's remarkable about this tape is that is still in good condition. I haven't recorded on one of these reels in years but they play back great and the tape doesn't show any evidence of curling, shedding or any other problems some brands have displayed. I still have some price tags on the 10" reels, $10.99 a reel.
I’ve got to disagree about Sony PR-150 tapes.

Buying tapes was my initial step when re-entering open reel. The first tapes happened to be some previously recorded 7” Sony PR-150.

As per the track listing on the back, they were mixed artist. For the first while, they sounded well recorded and I thought to keep them as is and not record over them. But a couple of hundred feet in began the most god awful squeal, the tape stuck to metal in the tape path and stopped cold. FF barely advanced it but would soon stop again. REW did not seem as affected.

I experimented wiping the tape’s play surface with IPA and that did seem to help but I figured it ain’t worth the hassle so pitched what reels of it I had. Kept the boxes though.

Since then I have totally ignored any Sony PR-150’s I’ve encountered except a couple of 10” on metal reels. Same deal though, chucked the tape - kept the boxes and the reels.

Will be re-spooling and splicing some 7” BASF or Audua onto those one of these days. I learned that rubbing away at the silk screen logos with acetone will remove them. Make that A LOT of rubbing with acetone.
 

Bob Boyer

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#9
So I saw where Nando and Ivo suggested a new thread on reel to reel tape experience. Never one to miss a chance to pontificate, I'll chime in, thankyouverymuch. :toothy8:

I'll do the easy part first. I'm not a fan of the NOS tapes but that's primarily because the prices for the good ones are now equal to or more than the new stuff. I prefer buying new and supporting the existing manufacturers these days. But that's just me. If you can find a deal on good NOS tapes, jump on it.

That said, I came across a reel of Maxell UD 35-90 when I first bought my Pioneer RT-1050 to get back into the hobby about ten years ago (has it been that long?). I'm listening to it now and it's fine other than it's recorded in half track and I'm listening on a quarter track Revox. It's a backcoated tape but shows no sign of sticky shed. Muddy Waters and Willie Dixon sound pretty damn fine right now, thanks to a mixer that allows me to balance the output between the channels. I'd forgotten how good that big Pioneer was at recording. And I'd have no trouble recommending this tape but won't go looking for it.

The big stash of NOS tape I used for several years came from surplus from the campus radio station - a couple of boxes of NOS Quantegy 407 either on the reel or as pancakes. Most of my early recordings were made to that tape and if you've been following my commentary lately you'll know I'm finding the stuff that came from the box of pancakes is beginning to show signs of sticky shed, even though its reputation up to now has been good. (And yes, Quantegy was formed by Ampex engineers after Ampex went belly-up in the early 80s after digital wiped out the analog side of the industry. The tapes were manufactured at a facility just down the road in Anniston, Alabama, IIRC.) Definitely not a fan of the backcoated Ampex tapes and now the Quantegy version seems to be going downhill as well. I will say that the reel of Quantegy 480 I got from Nando last year is doing well, as are a couple of reels of non-backcoated Ampex 641 speech-grade tape. But I don't recommend 641 for high-quality recordings as it's kinda noisy.

To the new stuff. I have used both RMGI/RTM LPR-35 and SM-911 without issue. I had my Revox PR-99, my Teac 3440, and my Tascam 38 all calibrated to SM911 and loved it while making those live recordings for UT Chattanooga 7 or 8 years ago. You could hit it like a rented mule and it just sounded right. I used the LPR-35 in my home system and liked it fine but it couldn't be flogged quite as hard as the SM-911. Which makes sense, it's a 1 mil tape and the SM911 is a 1.5 mil thick tape. My LPR-35 recordings still sound good after 7 or 8 years.

I also tried, and liked, the Capture 914 1.5 mil thick tape I evaluated about four years ago. My tests were a bit unfair in that my PR-99 was calibrated to the SM-911 and the recordings sounded a little dark but that's to be expected; they are different formulas. I don't hesitate to recommend either the 914 or the Capture 930 (1 mil) tapes, especially at their price points. They are the value leader among the new tapes. But you have to calibrate your deck to this tape.

My favorite, however, and by some margin, is ATR's MDS-36 1 mil tape. I've calibrated my B77 Revox to it and it is just magical in its ability to record music. I told Nakdoc the other day after recording Kind Of Blue from a digital file he gave me that my eyes were telling me one thing but the sound was telling me another. I buried the meters in the red - and not for transients, either - but the sound was just beautiful. Clear, clean, transparent. Incredible high end, lots of air around the instruments. I'm sure ATR's Master 1.5 mil tape is even better but I think the B77 would have to have some circuit upgrades to fully access a +9 tape like ATR Master. I'm hitting the MDS-36 at +5 or so and you'd never know I was over the 0db mark on the meters, it's that good. My highest recommendation for absolute quality sound. I sent a mixtape to Nando a couple of years ago on ATR MDS-36; I'll let him give another perspective to my assessment but as I recall, he liked the sound a lot.

All that said, I have three final points.

First, extracting the most out of a reel to reel (or a cassette) deck really means you need to spend the time (or in my case, the money) to properly calibrate the deck to a specific tape. Unless its an auto-cal Nakamichi or such. Even if you have Bias and EQ switches on your deck(s), I still recommend setting the deck up for one specific tape you'll use most of the time. Those recordings will be the best you can extract from the recorder. I have no choice with my Revox; it has no Bias or EQ switches. I have to pick a tape and stick with it but that plays to my preferences anyway. But don't worry if you come across a good deal on some older tapes. A deck with Bias and EQ switches will benefit from your decision to pick a reference tape for the majority of your use, but playing with those switches while monitoring a test recording on the other tape(s) will get you close enough to use them to good advantage.

Second, all of the new tapes I speak of are backcoated. I do not know of any tape currently being made that is not backcoated. I'm fine with that; I'll be long dead before my ATR stuff goes bad, if it ever does. But it is something to consider if you lean towards older tapes.

Third: in a lot of cases, old acetate and early mylar tapes bought on the cheap are false economy. A lot of this stuff is very abrasive and new tape heads are rare as hen's teeth. They'll be expensive if you can find them at all, so beware. If you have a stash of decks, you can play. Me, I only have one of each and have to protect my investment, which means using the new stuff unless I run across some UD or XL Maxell.

Happy taping, folks.
 
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wattsabundant

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#10
I've got about a dozen 10 inch reels that I've had forever and no way to play them. One is in a metal can and says Declaration of Independence on it. I don't know how I came to own these. Likely it was a public auction. Going to look for an inexpensive deck locally. I did read the article Nando suggested with special interest on shedding. Now I need a Kenner easy bake oven to bake the tapes at 130F (54C).
 

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#11
@Bob Boyer Suggesting that you edit your last post as the last half is WHITE text and the light orange? on the light blue page background don't show well.
 

J!m

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#12
I'm going to reinforce Bob's comments on calibration. Coming from the cassette perspective in my case now, but even from the same lot of tape, I am finding a need to gently tweak the bias and gain settings for each channel when I make my recordings.

Fully optimizing your equipment will gain the absolute best you can wring from a tape. Be it cassette or open reel.

And use the meters, but trust your ears. Get good cans, and really listen deep. Be able to discern the distortion that is inherent in the music (artist's design) and the distortion that is happening because of tape saturation. That is not often easy to distinguish- I had some trouble myself when I got back into the swing, and I was overdriving the tape a bit. I'm better at it now, and I know that the tapes coming off my decks are going to be "hot" on nearly every other deck.
 

Elite-ist

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@Bob Boyer Suggesting that you edit your last post as the last half is WHITE text and the light orange? on the light blue page background don't show well.
At the very bottom left corner of the forum page is "Default Style." Click on it and choose default style rather than light style.

Nando.
 

orange

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Err, No, that's not really it. Bob's post is actually messed up as I said and I prefer the light page. The red on black of the composing window is a bit drastic on my eyes.
 

Bob Boyer

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@Bob Boyer Suggesting that you edit your last post as the last half is WHITE text and the light orange? on the light blue page background don't show well.
Thanks, Steven. I think it's fixed now. I messed up the color changes on one of the tape names and thought I was resetting color swatch to white; apparently not.
 

laatsch55

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Err, No, that's not really it. Bob's post is actually messed up as I said and I prefer the light page. The red on black of the composing window is a bit drastic on my eyes.
Looks fine on mine on black background...
 

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#17
This is a nice way to spend some time for us shut-ins. I must say, I never met a R2R I didn't enjoy. I've owned Teac's, Akai's, one Revox, a bunch of Pioneer's (still have one 707) and of course, my collection of Sony's. Most of the decks were set up for XL1. I had a Pioneer 1011L that ran XL1 and was probably one of the best recording decks of that group. I eventually had it switch over to LPR and it never was the same. I'm down to my Sony's now with a couple set up for LPR and the rest are still aligned for XL1. I like LPR but it will never be equal to Maxell. I'm going to have my 765 aligned for Capture 90 this year once I can get some positive info on its performance.
I have worked with XLI for many years and the reason I moved away from it was that LPR35 is a superior tape to that then MDS36 is still a little above that- If you measure things with test equipment each tape on it's own setting you find out what they can do. The Capture tape is made to be sold cheap and it does not equal the RMGI or ATR stuff at all and in fact prints lower than Ampex 406. Why do I know this?- I tested on a deck and compared it to 406 and the print level was lower. When you start cutting cost and oxide you will end up with a Radio Shack like product. If you deck went from XL I to LRP35 and sounded worse then you Technician did not set it up right as the LPR should be as good or even better than the Maxell.
 
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#18
Sam, Thank you for your input. Your info on the capture tape is interesting. With that information in mind, I may just stay with LPR.

I see where I mentioned my 765 in the post. I'm going to get rid of it this year along with the 766-2. That will leave me with the 755's, 756 and 758' One 755 needs to be serviced and I should get the 758 serviced since it has some intermitted problems going into reverse. So both could stand a complete overhaul.

Ron
I have worked with XLI for many years and the reason I moved away from it was that LPR35 is a superior tape to that then MDS36 is still a little above that- If you measure things with test equipment each tape on it's own setting you find out what they can do. The Capture tape is made to be sold cheap and it does not equal the RMGI or ATR stuff at all and in fact prints lower than Ampex 406. Why do I know this?- I tested on a deck and compared it to 406 and the print level was lower. When you start cutting cost and oxide you will end up with a Radio Shack like product. If you deck went from XL I to LRP35 and sounded worse then you Technician did not set it up right as the LPR should be as good or even better than the Maxell.
 

MarkWComer

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#19
My last reel deck was a Realistic TR-3000 (Teac X3).
Long time ago, 1978? Never used it much, but Maxell UD comes to mind.

Other than cassettes for the car, I never liked tape all that much.
 

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Sam, Thank you for your input. Your info on the capture tape is interesting. With that information in mind, I may just stay with LPR.

I see where I mentioned my 765 in the post. I'm going to get rid of it this year along with the 766-2. That will leave me with the 755's, 756 and 758' One 755 needs to be serviced and I should get the 758 serviced since it has some intermitted problems going into reverse. So both could stand a complete overhaul.

Ron
Hi Ron, The 765 and 766 were some of the best they made so getting rid of good stuff and staying with lesser product is backwards. I have worked on 755 and I am not so much thinking that it is a bad unit either. The Auto reverse stuff can be fixed but the reversing stuff they use needs to be freed up.
I have some Sony decks here now I have to get out and the PCB do not match the service manual for the caps so you wonder how to repair this?
I have calibrated deck to Capture when requested but you are not doing yourself any favors as the LPR and MDS tape is pretty close but the Capture tape will need to be used exclusively on a deck. I was not impressed by it at all. The LPR90 more closely matches the MDS36 BTW. That is probably why they made it.
 
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